Abel to Yzerman
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Thursday Odds and Ends: Markov, Gender and Fraud In The Workplace
by IwoCPO on 08/02/07 at 06:08 AM ET
Comments (22)
And Khan(!) shall lead them. The Deep Diggers are slowly awakening from their summer slumber, and the results are startling. The DD Captain enlightens us this morning with an analysis of the Markov situation.
“He told me what he’s looking for; we’re not even close to that,’’ Holland said. “Right now, we’re satisfied with our defense. We’d like to have Danny back, but if he signs somewhere else, we’re comfortable.’’
He said he’d like to add some depth on defense, but only at the right price. He offered Markov a two-year deal at the draft in June, apparently at around the same $2.5 million-a-year salary he earned last season.
“He told me the salary range he’s looking for. We don’t have any interest in that salary range,’’ Holland said.
Khan(!) asks a pretty relevant question: why are the Wings making any offers to Markov at all if they are so seemingly happy with the rotation of defensemen they already have? The top six are pretty much already established with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Lebda, Chelios and Lilja. Meech, despite Holland saying he has to “earn a spot on the roster...it won’t be given to him”, is pretty much guaranteed a 7th spot because he’d have to clear waivers before heading over to GR. So where would that leave us if Markov does sign?
Chatter here indicates some of you feel Kronwall should be trade bait. Not gonna happen due to the salary commitment the Wings have made. He’s ours and we just have to hope for a miraculous turnaround in health and maturation of the flashes of offensive ability we’ve seen the last two years. Lebda and Lilja, if Meech is really ready, could be considered tradeable; but moving them in favor of Markov comes with pitfalls too. Lebda is a future top 4 defenseman and could very well be that for the Wings this year. Lilja, despite that little mistake last Spring, had a great playoff and could finally be the consistent hammer on the back end we haven’t had in 8 years.
Holland would be in a tough spot if Markov decides today that the alleged 2.5 the Wings are offering fits his financial future. Someone would have to go, and it have to be via trade; and that trade wouldn’t bring us much because the position Holland was dealing from would be pretty damn weak. All of that leads me to believe the public overtures to Markov may be for show. As it stands right now, there’s just no room for the guy. There’s no animosity there, just the reality of a stacked blue line and a bit of a bind where Meech is concerned. It would seem, and it’s kind of embarrassing that it’s taken me this long to figure it out, that the day Rafalski signed Markov’s ticket out of Detroit was stamped.
The Detroit News’ Joanne Gerstner reacts to a study out of UM that shocks the world: men and women are not only different (well, there’s always Denver), but their views of sports are different as well.
But Markovits also discovered something else, that most women—myself included—are not sports trivia-spouting machines. We don’t care what Bill Laimbeer’s free-throw percentage was in 1987 or how many penalty minutes Steve Yzerman accrued in 1993.
And we probably can’t name the starting lineup of the 1974 Tigers. We don’t care.
We can look that dead information up in a book or on the Internet.
“I think men are more into the historical nature of sports, and trivia, because it’s a way for men to relate to each other—it’s a way of proving yourself to others,” Markovits said. “Men make connections by sharing these bits of information with other men—it establishes themselves.
“Women don’t need to do that to establish a social connection. Women are actually more evolved in social relationships and have more things to talk about.”
Without looking, to test her theory, I’m going to give it a shot. Laimbeer’s free throw percentage in ‘87? I’ll guess 91% (actual is .893). Yzerman’s PIM in ‘93? I’ll go with 60 (actual is 44). The starting lineup for ‘74 Tigers? Tough one. No chance on the starting lineup but I’ll go with this: Freehan, Rodriguez, Brinkman, Cash, Horton, Northrup. Ruhle, Hiller, Lolich. That’s all I got. Don’t look it up you cheating bastards, and try to name a few more if you’re that bored.
By now you’ve seen Greg Wyshynski’s piece at AOL Fanhouse on the citizen who resides at Klessel’s Emporium of BS and Swill. If you haven’t checked it out, read it. At the very least it confirms everything reputable bloggers have been saying about the wedding singer for the last several months, plus there’s pictures that should be added to every hockey fan’s photoshop library.
A few excerpts:
*Klessel on the Nashville situation, and the part he feels he played in attempting to keep a sport in a state that doesn’t give a flying f^&k about it one way or another.
“I did it for a very specific reason, for the same reason I managed to get this thing going during the lockout,” he told me in a phone interview on Monday. “I saw hockey being taken away from people who love it, and that’s crossing the line. All the rumors in the world don’t matter in comparison to those kids who go with their dad every Thursday night [to a game], and then it’s gone.”
I guess that sense of fellowship was developed when Dwayne’s mom was firing tennis balls at his head at an early age; or when he was singing “Hungry Like The Wolf” at the Billings wedding in ‘02.
*Klessel’s participation in Sportsnet’s deadline day coverage this year after he was exposed as an idiot last Spring.
Eklund said he isn’t sure what Sportsnet’s plans are for next deadline; he’s leaning towards not having a second go-round, and instead concentrating on breaking news on his blog.
Good call. Good direction to lean in. Probably a bit more financially lucrative too. Better start ramping up those subscriber fees now to offset the significant cost of being consistently wrong.
*On the technical expertise required to create a fictional email address, then use that address to send messages to bloggers who criticize him for lying in his various bios, charging money for BS rumors and making claims that he represents hockey bloggers.
Eklund made it crystal clear to me: He’s never gone on someone else’s message board under (another) pseudonym to defend himself, and he’s never sent an anonymous e-mail to another blogger. “I don’t even know how to send an anonymous e-mails, even though they’re sent to me.”
Funny. Nigerian princes can send me anonymous emails every day offering me glorious opportunities to share in their wealth, but Dwayne can’t figure out how to create an “anonymous” email address. Dwayne can operate under a leaking umbrella of anonymity, but can’t navigate his way through the complex yahoo/gmail/hotmail registration procedures.
*Klessel on Kukla.
He said he didn’t want to get into a pissing match with Kukla over his claims because he avoids this kind of “he said, she said” on his blog. But Eklund said Kukla never sent him “the proof” about the IP address situation, and sees it as part of a larger disinformation campaign that specifically targets him. While he had his theories about how the IP addresses may have in fact been spoofed, he refused to go on the record with them. “I’m not a computer guy like [Kukla] is, so I don’t know how that’s even done.”
Woops, a dilemma we should all consider. Who to believe in the Kukla/Klessel situation? Hmmm. Tough one. I’ll have to do some exhaustive research before I determine which of the two has credibility and who doesn’t. I’m so conflicted.
One more note on Klessel and the Nashville situation. Dwayne has a readership, and it’s huge. That’s a fact. He joined Bubba in their rally to keep their team, and that’s nice. He hitched his fading star to that, and here’s where the trouble starts. He’s getting a lot of peoples’ hopes up through his consistent claims that hockey will stay in Nashville. He seems pretty certain of that and cites his BS sources consistently to confirm it. Meanwhile, writers like Scott Burnside are saying keeping the team there is anything but a solid assumption.
But here’s the problem. The Predators have never averaged 16,000 in paid attendance, even when they were new and novel and there was a buzz about them. Freeman was fairly vague on the subject of where the corporate and fan support was going to come from.
“There’s no question in my mind, wherever the support comes from, it’ll be sufficient,” Freeman said.
But you know what they say about the value of talk. The reality is Leipold has already stripped down his talented team to cut salary to close to the cap floor of $34.3 million (they are just above that now). As a result, the Predators figure to move from a contender for a Central Division crown to jockeying for a playoff spot somewhere in the middle of the Western Conference pack
Woops. Reality, man it sucks when it jumps in the way of a quick hit sourced out rumor, eh? Yeah. The reality is corporate sponsors don’t give a damn about rallies, about wedding singers posing as hockey experts operating under fake names. And fans who didn’t watch a great team definitely aren’t going to watch a mediocre one. Or buy season tickets to “take their kids on a Thursday night”.
I leave you with a stirring passage from Peklund, the anti-Dwayne.
I don’t know if my blog is going to help shut this guy down. I don’t care. It’s better than nothing. It makes me feel better knowing I am pissing this idiot off because he is so insecure with himself. It’s like he now believes he is something he isn’t. If he would not charge money for his crap then I’d have no problem with his site. But he does charge money. So as long as he keeps doing this then I will keep doing what I am doing. Driving him right up the wall.
Definitely a noble goal.
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Comments
Heaton, I’d bet that with Lebda’s athletic ability and speed, his defense will improve.
Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 08/02/07 at 08:38 AM ET
In the classic sense? Or in the play keep away sense? Because I don’t think he’ll ever be known for his sound positional play in the defnese zone, his ability to stick check the opposition or blocking shots.
I’m not trying to put him down and I’m not trying to say he hasn’t been pretty good while he’s been here, but he’s not really an offensive defensemen or a defensive defensemen, he’s more of a guy you put out there for his speed and hope the other team doesn’t pin them down in our zone.
Posted by Heaton on 08/02/07 at 08:49 AM ET
Why does a #4 defenseman have to play on the PK? Is there a bylaw?
Posted by HockeyinHD on 08/02/07 at 08:51 AM ET
for me Lebs is never going to more than a 3rd pairing D man.
i sometimes wonder why he was ever up, because he’s not shown that he’s significantly better than Quincy or Meech, and i’d put that within a year Kindl and at least one of those whill go above him in the depth charts…
i think if he doesn’t develop well this year he could well be traded at the deadline.
Posted by ar_pharazon on 08/02/07 at 09:04 AM ET
I like Lebda. He is very talented. Sees the ice well, and has great puck sense. Unlike Kronwall, he learns from his mistakes. His downside (and maybe a very short career) is his stature. Big aggressive teams were throwing him around like a rag doll. Sometimes it resembled one of those midget throwing contests you see in the movies. His size is the only thing that will keep him from becoming a franchise player. He SHOULD be used on he power play because of his puck sense and speed. On the PP his stature would be less of an issue because PK’ers are supposed to avoid taking themselves out of the play with body checks. If he can learn to use his speed and agility to avoid vulnerable positions, he could be a very valuable asset. Don’t give up on Lebda, but forget about using him on the PK, he will never be able to clear the slot.
Posted by Gramps (HockeyTownTodd) from Hockeytown on 08/02/07 at 10:25 AM ET
His size is the only thing that will keep him from becoming a franchise player.
I’ve always defined a Franchise Player as a guy that you could potentially build a team around, so I have a question; if Lebda were 3 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier but still wasn’t able to play in all situations how exactly would he be a Franchise player? I’m not necessarily giving up on him, I just see him as a less physical Matthieu Dandenault, Dandy was ‘important’ to the Wings during his time here but he was expendable.
Lebda has had some success on the PP, but he’s not a very good playmaker and doesn’t have that great of a shot, he’s better at joining the rush 5 on 5 or creating odd-man breaks. I certainty don’t see a viable replacement in the system this year but if Kindl, Quincey or Ericsson are ready next year, I can’t see Lebda holding them back. Though I suppose Lilja will most likely be gone anyway.
Posted by Heaton on 08/02/07 at 10:50 AM ET
That 5’10”, 190 lbs listed with the NHL is very generous. I think adding 3 in and 20 lbs might get him to 6’, but not even close to 200 lbs. You must have missed the playoffs. A Franchise player would have a different definition depending on whether it was with Detroit, or Phoenix. Your post seems to suggest that there would be no improvement to a gifted player with only 120 NHL games. Limited ice time, limited PP time and he had twice the number of GW goals as Lidstrom. Situational Stats list both GW goals as Clutch, and in the 3rd period. Don’t overlook the fact that for most of those 120 games, he was only used because of injuries and thrown right into the fire without experience. A walk on from Notre Dame, he was not even drafted because of his size. 5’10” is not even close to putting him in the undraftable category.
Posted by Gramps (HockeyTownTodd) from Hockeytown on 08/02/07 at 12:43 PM ET
Look, all I’m saying is I don’t believe Lebda will ever be an ideal guy to round out a top 4 on a cup contender. I realize this is a capped league now and guys like Samuelsson and Cleary are now considered players who are in our top 6 because of the different era, but I don’t think Lebda has the potential to be an ideal top 4 defensemen. I could be wrong, I have been before, but I think of Lebda the same way I thought of Jason Williams, sure Lebda is a smarter hockey player and has contributed a bit more, but I don’t think the sky is the limit for either guy. There’s nothing wrong with Lebda, he’s a serviceable guy, I just believe in a years time he could become extremely expendible with the influx of young(er) defensemen who are quickly running out of options.
Posted by Heaton on 08/02/07 at 01:58 PM ET
Lebda is a plugger. He’s no better than most of the 2nd pairing dmen in the AHL, and there’s no reason for a team that considers themselves a contender to waste a roster spot on him. Worrell is even worse.
The Wings have the luxury of having a stellar top two (Lidas and Rafalski) and a somewhat solid 2nd pairing (Chelios and Kronwall, though this is the year Kronwall needs to put up or shut up), so pikers like Lebda and Worrell aren’t asked to play 1st or 2nd pairing minutes.
But if Holland is really headed into the season thinking that keeping the two jobbers over trying to bring back a physical stud like Markov and giving a kid like Quincey (as limited as his potential is) a chance to prove himself is a good decision, well, he’s dumber than I thought he was.
Granted, the best move would be to try to get a couple scoring forwards so the Wings might have some semblance of a second line, and that would take precedence over signing Markov. But if it’s Markov or nothing, I’ll take Markov. If it’s Markov or Worrell and Lebda, I’ll take Markov, as would anyone with more than one brain cell knocking around in their cranium.
Posted by Thomas on 08/02/07 at 02:12 PM ET
I also prefer Markov to Lebda and Lilja. Markov, while he has the tendency to get hurt, is very reliable and physical. I love Lebda’s speed and Lilga was surprising in the last playoffs, I’ll admit, but I’ve always been a fan of Markov since his debut. I’M pretty sure a guy like Kindl is gonna stir the training camp by his performances, and he’s closer to the NHL that we might think.
Who is Worrell? Is it Lilja?
Posted by Luc on 08/02/07 at 02:51 PM ET
Lebda is better than 2nd pairing at the AHL level, but I mean, even Thomas knows he’s not a top 4 guy.
Posted by Nathan on 08/02/07 at 03:37 PM ET
Ken Holland’s M.O. is this: If he has a veteran player he really doesn’t want anymore, he offers them less than they will take. He says they are great players, that they have done a lot for the Wings, that he would love to have them back. Then he says that they are asking for more than he can afford. They walk. No hard feelings.
As an example, Holland could easily have afforded to keep Schneider. After all, he still has $6 million in the kitty. I think the Rafalski deal was planned well in advance. That deal makes the Wings younger and faster.
Similarly, he could afford a little raise for Markov. But no.
He is simply reshaping the team.
Posted by w2j2 on 08/02/07 at 04:50 PM ET
Who is Worrell? Is it Lilja?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1975106
I’M pretty sure a guy like Kindl is gonna stir the training camp by his performances, and he’s closer to the NHL that we might think.
Kindl has a ton of potential, but it would be a huge mistake to bring him up now.
Lebda is better than 2nd pairing at the AHL level
I was obviously being hyperbolic, but what I said wasn’t really that far off. I am looking at some second pairing AHL defensemen, and I would easily take some of them over Lebda.
I mean...Nathan Dempsey, Cam Barker, Tom Gilbert, Mark Stuart, Daniel Girardi, Danny Richmond, Patrick Traverse, Ivan Baranka, Eric Weinrich, Andy Greene, Noah Welch, Lars Jonsson, Dustin Byfuglien...there are tons of 2nd pairing AHL defensemen who are worlds better than Brett Lebda.
Posted by Thomas on 08/02/07 at 05:01 PM ET
Good lord, Cam Barker was a 1st round 3rd overall pick, it’s a weak comparison.
Posted by Heaton on 08/02/07 at 05:08 PM ET
It certainly doesn’t help that Lebda’s a Wing.
Posted by HockeyinHD on 08/02/07 at 08:26 PM ET
Good lord, Cam Barker was a 1st round 3rd overall pick, it’s a weak comparison.
Irrelevant. Someone criticized me for saying that Lebda is a 2nd pairing AHL DMan. I provided a list of 2nd pairing AHL DMen that are better than Lebda. And there are many many others.
It certainly doesn’t help that Lebda’s a Wing.
It makes absolutely no difference.
My favorite player in the NHL is a Wing. My favorite coach is a Wing as well. My least favorite player in the NHL is an Av, as is my least favorite coach. This isn’t exactly a secret.
Some of us are able to separate our emotions toward our team/against our rivals from our analyses. Just because you cannot doesn’t make you justified in assuming that I cannot either.
Posted by Thomas on 08/02/07 at 10:01 PM ET
Lebda is solid, doesn’t make many mistakes, and occasionally opens things up with his speed. He is a third-pair d-man and I’m not convinced he’ll ever be more than that, but that’s fine; the Wings have plenty of Top 4 D-Men already, and plenty of Future Top 4s in the pipeline. My problem is that I don’t think the Wings should have both Meech and Lebda in the Top 6 down the road - they’re basically twins: undersized, speedy d-men who are in theory offensive contributors, and both 3rd-pair guys in my mind. For this year at least it’s fine because they’ll both be in the lineup only in an injury situation (and Quincey can be called up if it’s a long-term injury).
As for Markov, I agree that the Wings prolly never planned on bringing him back, and that Holland’s offers are likely just a show. Really why would you want to sign him anyway? You’ve got Markov-lite in Lilja, and if he doesn’t pan out, you’ve got a pile of cash to trade for a d-man at the deadline. Hell, I’m willing to bet money that the d-man we go and get at the deadline is Markov. He seems to like signing one-year deals, and this late in the offseason, it’s likely going to be a bad team that signs him.
Posted by Pete K from East Lansing on 08/02/07 at 11:52 PM ET
I also dont believe lebda will ever be more than a 3rd pairing guy. Someone said there is no written rule tha #4 men have to kill penaltys, but usually #4 men are either good enough to be on the PP or good enough to be on the PK, and i dont believe lebda is either. His shot is absolutely pathetic which pretty much rules out any chance of him becoming an offensive stud, and his passing and defense are pretty mediocre. The only thing about him that is appealing is his speed/skating ability , and his contract. He reminds me alot of dandy. He looks like bobby orr coming through the neutral zone, but as soon as he crosses the blue line he turns into draper.
As for markov, i take this at face value. Markov wants too much money The wings have 3 top 4 guys, and about 6 bottom pair guys. IMO holland seriously would like to have him, but not at nearly the price hes asking. If he did sign him? you just move a lilja or a lebda for a pick or 2, maybe a prospect. As far as im concerned he can move both of them if he signed markov as i dont believe lilja would be all that much more effective than Q or lebda over meech, and then theres kindl as well. Eventually you have to start getting some of these guys in, and it should happen from the bottom. Spots that lilja and lebda are currently clogging.
Posted by aTTicA on 08/03/07 at 01:05 AM ET
To Thomas…
Being from the province of Quebec, I know Patrick Traverse pretty well, he played for the Habs, and Brett Lebda is way better than he is. It’s not even close. Trust me on that. Traverse played with the Habs during their dark years (end of the 90s) and it was painful to watch. I remember seeing him in a fight though, and a quite spectacular one....
Funny story that Worrell-Lilja thing!
Posted by Luc on 08/03/07 at 03:33 PM ET
Some of us are able to separate our emotions toward our team/against our rivals from our analyses.
Um, yeah. This from the guy who says Holland is killing the Wings? Sure.
Posted by HockeyinHD on 08/04/07 at 09:02 AM ET
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Wait, what? Lebda doesn’tplay the PK and never will for any team in serious playoff contention. He’s not very good defensively and his real only asset is his skating ability, take that away just a little bit and he’s almost completely ineffective. He has some decent offensive instincts and has shown some coast-to-coast ability, but he’ll never be a 1st unit PP guy and he’ll never be a go-to-guy out there on the blue line for offense. If in a few years Brett Lebda is rounding out our top 6 I’d wager that Lidstrom retired and we signed no one in the FA market.
In a year when Quincey isn’t waiver free, I’d take Q over Lebda. Oh yeah, his other great asset is his contract, something that would make him pretty appealing in a trade.
Posted by Heaton on 08/02/07 at 08:30 AM ET