Iwo-

Holland finally has the room to make trades this year, unlike last year, so I don’t think injuries had anything to do with it.  I really believe last year he was close to acquring either a Willie Mitchell or Brendan Witt, but couldn’t fit it under the Cap, he wasn’t going to let that happen again.  Remember, he didn’t want to overspend this summer, so he kept his powder dry until the trade deadline.  He might not’ve dealt Williams, or acquired Calder, but he’s not going to stand pat at the trade deadline as long as he has some dough to burn

Posted by bababooey on 02/27/07 at 02:40 AM ET

I think that Williams being a useless plugger is the biggest reason why he was dealt.

The Hawks took it right square up the crapper when they gave up Kukkonen and a 3rd, and then they allowed the Wings to go elbow deep on them for Calder. Wooo! Kukkonen and a 3rd for Williams. Happy days in Chicagoland, eh? A useless plugger with an injury bug for a good prospect and a nice pick. Way to build for the future, you effing morons.

Wings just got a useless plugger with a bit of upside for a useless plugger with an injury bug and no upside.

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 04:40 AM ET

I agree with Thomas that the Hawks really got crushed twice.  Calling Williams a useless plugger might even be an accurate description this year… but Calder?  Not so much.

I don’t know if it makes all that much sense to call a guy who plays with something of an edge and who has scored 20+ goals the two years previous to getting stuck on the headless Flyers and plays all three phases a ‘useless plugger’.

Indefatigable top line superstar?  Ah… no.
Solid middle six contributor?  Likely.
Useless plugger?  Certainly not.

Posted by hockeyinhd on 02/27/07 at 08:31 AM ET

Yep, fluff up the guy because he now plays for your team.

He’s a third liner. Dime a dozen.

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 10:38 AM ET

As I mentioned in your earlier post about this trade, I felt very lukewarm about it. Then, last night, something clicked—I thought about what the team’s line combinations looked like with Williams, and then I thought about them with Calder in place.

When you look at it from that perspective, it becomes clear that this was a very economical, smart, and clever trade.

The on-ice chemistry of this team instantly looks better with Calder riding with Lang and Sammy or Cleary (obviously, I’m speaking when/if everyone is healthy). Then, the guy left off that line can move to the Flip/Hudler line and give that line some grit or shooting. The key to all of that is that Babcock actually has to give that Flip/Hudler/whoever line a few more minutes per game.

You were definately right, IwoCPO. This was one that I had to think on before I could make a fair judgement.

Posted by Nathan on 02/27/07 at 10:58 AM ET

Thomas, how many Wings games have you seen this season?

Most of us commenting have seen almost all of them, and Williams for a bag of beans would’ve been a steal. He has been floating. He’s not using his speed to forecheck and hit the way he should. He hurts the team when he’s put in positions where he has to handle the puck (point on the PP). This season his mistakes have certainly cost the team more goals than his good moves have created.

He may recapture some of the form he had last season with the Hawks, but anyone that’s watched him here this season knows that he was never going to get that back in a Wings uniform. He used Babcock’s benching of him as a reason to regress and quit pushing, instead of a reason to work harder and prove his coach wrong.

It’s too bad, but to get something other than a box of Milk Duds for him is exciting, all things considered. If nothing more, this will shed a million-and-a-half off of next season’s books and let Holland make a serious play for some of the nice FAs that will be available. And that’s a smart deal, because Calder can’t play worse than Williams has this season.

Posted by Nathan on 02/27/07 at 11:13 AM ET

Uh, you might want to actually READ before you respond, champ. Read my first reply to this post. Go ahead. I will wait.

Dum-de-dum-de-dum…

Read it? Ok, now go get a grown up to read it to you and explain it to you. We’ll wait here for you.

La-la-la...la-la-la-la-la...la-la...la-la…

Get it now?

I SAID THAT WILLIAMS IS A USELESS PLUGGER. He is. He was the worst player involved in this deal. Philly made out like bandits, Detroit made out decently, and Chicago got hosed twice.

But Calder is nothing special. He’s a third liner. Yippee. Don’t fluff him up because he’s a Wing now, and don’t rail on Williams because he’s not anymore.

Frigging irrational, arrogant, ignorant Wings fans. Have to explain EVERYTHING to you in monosyllabic terms.

*shakes head*

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 12:37 PM ET

I was well aware of your post. And yet you followed up what was a good post that I agreed with by generalizing all of us and insulting us instead of talking about the deal any more. How is it that bagging on Wings fans for liking this deal is somehow above us expressing that we think this was a very smart deal?

At this point, you appear to be the “irrational, arrogant, ignorant” one by turning the discussion into personal attacks on a fan base. I’m sure I could do the same, but I don’t know what team you are a fan of, nor do I care.

I simply think that anyone who has watched Williams play shift-in and shift-out this year should be excited about this deal. I don’t feel that he was fluffing up Calder. That’s why I think your condescending attitude is unnecessary.

Posted by Nathan on 02/27/07 at 01:13 PM ET

Obviously, you either weren’t aware of my post, or else you simply couldn’t comprehend it.

Nobody is bagging on Wings fans for liking the deal, genius. I am bagging on you because you are trashing the guy you just dealt and fluffing up Calder like you just got a Hart Trophy guy for a 4th line ECHLer.

I may be arrogant (arrogance implies an unfounded confidence in your abilities, and there’s nothing unfounded about my confidence), but I am certainly neither ignorant nor irrational. And it’s not a personal attack on a fan base. You should look up what the word “personal” means, genius.

Man, you do absolutely nothing to break the stereotypes, do you?

*shakes head*

Friggin Wings fans. Man, I am so glad I don’t live around you fools anymore. Go eat some chili, moron.

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 01:24 PM ET

Wow… I’m thrilled for the fanbase that gets to include that Thomas guy in it’s fraternity, no?

At any rate, I think most of the non-psychotic contributors to this topic are on board in describing it:  A good move, certainly an upgrade, but nothing stupendous.  As far as ragging on Williams now just because he’s not a Wing anymore… um, Jason’s been catching bullets for a while now (along with Lang and Schneider).

I guess is some guy thinks calling Calder a solid middle six contributor is ‘fluffing him up’, well, to each their own.

Posted by Hockeyinhd on 02/27/07 at 02:11 PM ET

Rational and intelligent = “psychotic”?

You are an imbecile.

Good move for the Wings, yes. Not Earth-shattering. Williams was a plugger. Calder is a plugger. Williams wasn’t complete garbage, Calder isn’t a Hart candidate.

Friggin idiot Wings fans. Seriously, is there a single damn one of you who can have a reasonable, intelligent hockey discussion? I have been waiting my whole life for one.

Still waiting.

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 03:21 PM ET

Fortunately guys like Thomas are out there for those looking for ‘reasonable, intelligent’ hockey discussion.

Posted by Hockeyinhd on 02/27/07 at 03:29 PM ET

Yep. And when all I find are mindless bandwagon morons bashing anyone who leaves their team and fellating anyone who gets traded to their team, well, I respond appropriately.

If you don’t like it, stop being a moron. Simple as that.

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 03:32 PM ET

I sense the presence of an embittered Avs fan…

Posted by hockeyinhd on 02/27/07 at 06:21 PM ET

Embittered about what?

Your team made moves that should help, but not enough to be a legitimate contender. Your already weak prospect system is even weaker now, and you dealt away picks, guaranteeing that your system grows even weaker.

Your team would miss the playoffs entirely if it were in either of the other divisions in our conference, but that’s not going to last too much longer. St. Louis got a whole hell of a lot stronger the last few days, and Nashville is already head and shoulders better.

You choked out of the playoffs last year to a friggin eight seed, and you won’t make it past the first round this year.

Thankfully, my team did at least SOMETHING right and didn’t go out and go after players to make a run at the playoffs. If you’re not going to win the Cup, you should go for a better draft pick in the post-cap era, and that’s what the Avalanche are doing. We’ll have LOADS of cap room in the offseason, and our prospect system is one of the best in the league, with several guys ready to push our upcoming free agent acquisitions.

Bitter? Not in the slightest. My team is in great shape. Yours is on its last legs.

You’re just too effing dumb to realize it.

Posted by Thomas on 02/27/07 at 08:07 PM ET

Yes Thomas, I can see how Detroit being above .500 against every conference in the West (and 20-10-4 outside the Central) would make you think they’d miss the playoffs were they outside the Central.

Colorado should be thrilled to have someone so willing to ignore the serious flaws on that team as a fan.  If only all Avs fans were as, um, ‘dedicated’ as you.

Oh, and good luck with Theodore.

Posted by hockeyinhd on 02/28/07 at 04:01 AM ET

It’s easy to keep momentum when you’re beating on the dregs of the league night in and night out.

Your team is as shallow as they come. You’ve been lucky not to have faced any serious injuries. And you’re lucky to be playing in the most pathetic division in the game.

Avs have serious flaws that I am ignoring? We have a weak GM and the dumbest coach in the game. We have a lot of money tied up in a goalie who isn’t playing as well as he could be, and bonus money being paid to Sakic and Blake.

I don’t know when Idiot will be fired, but the Sakic and Blake money will be off the books after this year, as will JoeTed.

Serious flaws? Besides Idiot, there’s nothing that isn’t simply going away 19 games from now.

Good luck with Theodore? Uh, hate to break it to you, but you have a streaky headcase of a goalie who gives up on his team come playoff time. Good luck with his “groin injuries”.

*shakes head*

Friggin idiot Wings fans. Mindlessly thumping their chest, without even a modicum of common sense.

Posted by Thomas on 02/28/07 at 01:37 PM ET

Heh.

Out of Division:

Columbus. 13-14-5.  .484 points.
St. Louis.  12-13-4.  .483 points.
Colorado. 14-16-4. .471 points.
Chicago.  10-12-6.  .464 points.

Dregs of the league, indeed.

I like your kind representation of the Theodore situation as a goalie ‘not playing as well as he could be’.  That’s touching.

It’s also nice to see you think the absence of any decent defensive forwards, depth at defensemen or legitimate #1 goaltending are all problems just ‘going away’ in 19 games.  Considering there aren’t any defensive forwards, defensemen or #1 goaltending of note in the Avs system and replacing players through FA is proving to be a study in overpayment… that ought to be interesting.

Look, even broken-down Avs fans like you have had a few things to cheer for this season:  Sakic’s been playing well, Stasny and Wolski look like good (if decidedly offense-only minded) players.  Brunette’s been a surprisingly good addition.  Other than that, though… it’s been ugly.

Hey, maybe a coach who to you suddenly seemed to get stupid once assuming control of the Avs being fired is all it will take.

Then again, maybe not.  Best of luck, my incapable-of-discussion-without insults friend.  The Avs certainly need every drop of it which can be mustered.

Posted by Hockeyinhd on 02/28/07 at 02:44 PM ET

Dregs of the league, like I said. You play in the worst division in hockey, by far. You can cite their OOC record as much as you want. The simple fact is that there are only two playoff teams in your division, and one of those teams would be a bubble playoff team at best in the Northwest or Pacific.

Record against the NW and Pacific when you don’t play in those divisions night in and night out is irrelevant. It’s easy to tee off on a team you don’t play very often, especially when you can rest your #1 throughout your in-division games. When you, playing in a weak division, play against a team in a tough division, you’re usually playing their #2, since they have to use their #1 for the much tougher in-division games.

But whatever. Tell yourself whatever you like. The proof is in the pudding. You coasted to the #1 seed last year by beating up on powerhouses such as Columbus, St Louis and Chicago. Then you were absolutely EMBARRASSED by an 8 seed in the first round. Your team wasn’t ready for the playoffs because you played cupcakes all year.

Your impending first round collapse will be enjoyable, to say the least. I don’t even dislike the team, really. It’s the idiot fans that do it. People like you. Arrogant asswipes who think that being from Detroit means you “know hockey”.

Then again, my viewpoints are very well known on this topic.

Theodore isn’t playing as well as he should be. How else should it be said? He’s been good some nights, bad some others. He’s inconsistent, and that’s why he lost his job. He’s a good backup, and I would love to keep him on in that role. But not for what he makes. Which is why he’ll be moved one way or the other in the offseason. No sugar coating here, I will leave that for the idiot Wings fans and their mindless fellation of anything Wings.

The Avs don’t need defensive forwards, they need a defensive system. That’s one of the things the Wings have done right since Bowman and Vernon convinced Yzerman to start playing a little D. The Wings have a system built around a commitment to team defense. The Avs have a system built around, well, who knows what the hell Idiot is trying to preach. But if they Wings were able to get One-Way Steve and Brett Freaking Hull to play defense, then it’s not a matter of having “defensive forwards,” it’s a matter of getting the forwards they have to play defense.

Depth at defense? The Avs have eight legitimate NHL-caliber defensemen (Liles, Leopold, Skrastins, Vaananen, Klee, Sauer, Brisebois and Clark). Having their #1 injured all year has hurt, as has the fact that three of their defensemen are offensive-minded and defensively suspect. Really, the problem there is that Idiot doesn’t seem to understand that Brisebois isn’t someone to put out there on the PK (or any key moment in a game...or anything more than 3rd pairing minutes, for that matter), and the same goes for Clark. If there were a coach who knew how to coach a strong defensive system and could get his players to listen to that (which falls in large part on the shoulders of the captain), then things would be very different.

The Avs have a #1. Peter Budaj. He’s young, and he’s got a wretched team defense in front of him. He’s played admirably well, despite that.

I’d be more concerned about your goaltending situation, if I were you. Your #1 quits on his team in the playoffs every year. Your #2 is one of the worst playoff goalies in recent memory. Liv can’t seem to string together more than 3 games of consitent play, and Howard has taken a huge step back since college. You’re hurting. You’re going to have to go out in free agency to pick up a goaltender this offseason, and your idiot GM doesn’t have the originality to sign someone who hasn’t played for the Wings in the past. So you’re looking at Osgood, CuJo or Legace as your starter next year, unless Hasek decides he’s got another half season left in him.

Broken-down Avs fan? What? You’re just pulling nonsense out of your ass. There’s nothing to be broken down about. My team has an incredible future. And I would MUCH rather miss the playoffs and get a better pick than be lambasted in the first round like you guys will be (and like we would be if we made the playoffs). This isn’t the pre-cap NHL, where making the playoffs ensured an extra two home games and that $2m into the team’s coffers for free agent/trade pickups. There’s a cap. Making more money doesn’t do anything but make Illitch and Kroenke richer, and I couldn’t care less about their financial situation (not entirely true...I’d like to see Illitch make some more money so he could futher gentrify (look it up) Detroit...the more he tears down and replaces with new stuff, the better for Detroit’s economy).

My views on that have been blasted quite publicly over the past year with regards to the Lions. I am not a half-assed person. Either win it all, or go for the #1 pick. Simply making the playoffs serves no purpose. The Avs (because of their idiot GM) don’t have the horses to win the Cup, so missing the playoffs is a good thing for the future of the franchise.

Champions aren’t born out of mediocrity. Look at the 90s Dallas Cowboys, the Indianapolis Colts and the Detroit Tigers for evidence of that.

Stastny is “offense-only”? Guess you haven’t seen him play. He plays like a seasoned vet. While he’s not exactly going to challenge for the Selke, he’s not suspect defensively at all. Wolski is another issue, but he’s still a rookie. Yzerman didn’t see his own end of the rink until he had been in the league over a decade. Wolski has plenty of time to develop defensively.

Quenneville got stupid once he took control of the Avs? Huh? Quenneville was always a shitty coach. He was shitty in St Louis, he’s shitty here, and he’s going to be shitty wherever he goes next.

Incapable of discussion without insults? Not in the slightest. I know the game better than you ever will. But why would I respond to Seuss with Steinbeck?

Posted by Thomas on 02/28/07 at 04:25 PM ET

Very long post.  Very little fact.

Look, Thomas… I get you’re an Avs fan.  A particularly deluded and stubborn Avs fan, but an Avs fan nonetheless.  Your opinions of the WIngs are obviously clouded by your delusions… and hey, that’s fine.  Plenty of fans are similarly blinded.  Let me refute your points with facts, however.

“It’s easy to tee off on a team you don’t play very often..” Interesting.  Why is it that Detroit has the best OOD record in the West, especially considering that all the other teams have the ‘advantage’ of playing the allegedly weak Central and having a similarly ‘easy’ time beating up on them?  Hmm.

Theodore’s been horrible.  Sugar coat it however you want… he’s been abyssmal.

If you don’t think the Avs need defensive forwards, you’re more clueless than you claim others are.

The Avs don’t have 8 NHL dmen.  They have, maybe, 6… and only two that should be in a top 4.  And don’t whine about injuries to a defenseman when you trade for said injured defensemen.  If your organization is so clueless as to acquire an obviously injured guy, you can’t rationally complain about the guy being injured.

Hey, if you’re happy with Budaj as your #1… I wish you all the best.  One less team in the West to worry about.  As far as Detroit goaltending situation goes, no question, there are some possible issues there.  I’d rather have those issues for a combined 1.6 million than the ones the Avs currently labor under for around 6 mil, though.

As far as the Avs future goes, believe what you want.  Considering their present I can see why you’d long for a distant future.

Sadly, I think I’m going to leave you now to chew over the stale, tasteless remains of what I’m sure are your oft-spewed opinions.

I have playoff tickets to buy.

Posted by Hockeyinhd on 03/01/07 at 10:42 AM ET

My post was very long, and apparently too well-informed for you to understand it.

I am an Avs fan, but I am far from deluded. Don’t think that just because Wings fans are deluded that all Avs fans are as well.

Re: your first attempt to “refute” an argument of mine - Detroit’s OOD record...I covered that in the post you are responding to. Re-read it for your answer. I can’t help you if you are just too dumb to comprehend an intelligent, coherent argument.

Nobody is sugar-coating anything with regards to Theodore. He hasn’t been horrible, he has been inconsistent, which is just as bad. Nobody is trying to sugar-coat anything, I am just more concerned with being accurate than anything else. JoeTed is good one game, then awful the next. The team doesn’t know how to play in front of him, because they don’t know if he’s going to stand on his head and allow them to play an offensive game, or if they need to hang back because he’s going to be a sieve. If JoeTed’s numbers were the same as they are now, and he were just consistent, then there wouldn’t be a problem. The team would know how they have to play in front of him, and they could go out and win games.

The JoeTed trade was a mistake. Getting rid of Aebischer was huge, but taking on JoeTed’s contract in return was part of what hurt the Avs this year.

The Avs don’t need defensive forwards, they need a defensive system. I am sorry that you don’t understand the difference.

The Avs have eight legitimate NHL defensemen. That’s a fact. They don’t have the *RIGHT* eight...they don’t even have the right six. They don’t have, really, a legitimate #1. They have a bunch of #6s. But they have eight legitimate NHL defensemen. That’s a fact. There’s no way around that.

You mock Budaj? Never seen him play, I take it. You, ma’am, are an imbecile. Budaj is one of the best young goalies in the game. I can’t think of another young goalie in the league who has played so well despite being shelled night after night.

Believe what I want about the Avs’ future? Wow, way to just completely dodge an argument. Don’t know much about prospects, eh? Know absolutely nothing about the Avs’ prospects, eh?

The funny thing is, I know your team and its prospects better than you do. And you don’t even know the first thing about my team’s starters.

You’re just the typical *#$%@& Wings fan. You don’t know the sport, so you just bag on the team that your team used to be in a rivalry with.

I met tons of morons like you back home. They’d be all bluster and want to argue about hockey. And when you engage them, they back down just like you just did here, call a couple names, insult a couple players, and make the kind of pathetic remarks you just did.

You lack the understanding of the game to go toe-to-toe with me, so you just call me “deluded” and act as if *I* am the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. You bury your head in the sand and pretend I didn’t just rip you a new one, because that would force you to admit that there’s an Avalanche fan who knows the game a hundred times better than you do.

You go buy your playoff tickets. Enjoy your team’s first-round embarrassment, and subsequent free fall.

I have Draft preparations to make. When you’re playing the “maybe” game over some Swede the Wings drafted in the sixth round, I will be watching a guy who actually made the NHL. When you’re looking up at the league from the cellar, wishing you had a team, my team is going to be contending for Cups.

By the way, enjoy that weather. And that economy. No wonder you’re such a miserable little shit.

Posted by Thomas on 03/01/07 at 01:57 PM ET