Abel to Yzerman
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A Cold Winter
by IwoCPO on 06/28/09 at 09:51 AM ET
Comments (151)
Checking in from my unannounced, but very obvious, break from blogging...to ask this question:
Does Rich Winter belong in the Jackatoreum?
He’s doing his job, or at least he’s looking out for his own very personal interests. He wants as much cash as he can gather. Everybody’s momma’s got to eat. So he’s going to push this thing as far as he can, for as long as he can.
Tell me. Do you think Marian Hossa is going to ok a deal with LA, so that he can earn two million more per season? On the face of things, that’s an idiotic question. Two million more? Of course he has to consider it. He has to. But with that two million comes a lot of losses.
I still think Hossa’s leaning toward the Wings for 5 or less per year. Malik’s been all over this, including this morning when he pointed us to Jim Matheson in Edmonton.
If Marian Hossa doesn’t take the Red Wings’ long-term offer for between $4 and $5 million a year, Detroit will trade his negotiating rights, likely by Monday, two days before free agency opens.
Reliable sources say the Los Angeles Kings, who are looking for a marquee player and have lots of salary cap room, will come hardest after the unrestricted free agent. They could play Hossa with Anze Kopitar.
Bottom line: if Hossa signs in LA he’s forfeiting any chance at all of ever winning a Cup. It’s not going to happen there and we all know it. He knows it. Winter knows it. LA knows it. That’s why I don’t think it will happen. Am I saying he won’t sign elsewhere? Nope. Despite my gut telling me it’s still gonna be Detroit, he could go somewhere else. But if that happens, it’s going to be a team he can win with. This year? Maybe not, but sometime in the next three. And that’s not the Kings.
Winter’s doing his job and he’s putting the pressure on Tick Tock, while demonstrating to his client that the money’s out there if he wants it. Winter gains absolutely nothing by being the guy who proudly says “my player took less.” It’s no badge of honor for an agent.
Enjoy your Sunday. I’ll be at motherfu**ing Ikea.
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Comments
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You’re right. Because the guy who, throughout his entire career, has not been thought of as a playoff performer, did really well last year, then didn’t do so well this year PROVES that he is a playoff performer.
Someone who isn’t delusional might think that last year was a fluke.
OR might, at the VERY LEAST, not partially dismantle a team that, in back-to-back years WON the Stanley Cup (WITHOUT that non-playoff performer) and came within a game of repeating as champions, to accommodate this guy who, through NINE years of post-season play has had exactly ONE outstanding run.
But you’re right. One playoff, playing with Sid and Geno, has proven that he’s a playoff performer.
Do you, stayoutofmalibu, happen to be a former GM of the Maple Leafs? If you can get the job back, maybe we can trade you Chris Osgood and Nick Lidstrom for Vesa Toskala and Jeff Finger.
I strongly believe that if he signs with us this year that his playoff lacking won’t happen again.
Based on what? The fact that never before, and not since, has he replicated that year?
Or you could stop be such a tantrum throwing child and acknowledge what I actually said. What I said was that it proves that he is CAPABLE OF PERFORMING IN THE POSTSEASON. That is a fact, as he did perform last year with the Penguins. I never said it was consistent, I said he was capable of doing it. Fluke or not, he is capable of it. Now, my opinion is that with more time on our team, those playoff performances would become the norm and not the minority. I feel like with the friends he seemingly has made in the organization and with more time to develop more chemistry on the ice, he would perform for us in the playoffs in the future. Yes I realize he had a whole season to develop that chemistry, but I still think that more time can only help. You can disagree all you want, but that’s why they’re called OPINIONS.
For being a supposed Wings fan you sure act a hell of a lot like the petulant trolls that roll in here regularly.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Temporarily in Tempe, AZ on 06/29/09 at 08:16 PM ET
This never ends well for the kids.
Posted by monkey from Waiting for the lambs to stop screaming on 06/29/09 at 08:21 PM ET
Or you could stop be such a tantrum throwing child and acknowledge what I actually said.
Sorry, I guess I should have simply responded.
Oh, wait. That’s exactly what I did. You brought up a point, I brought up a counterpoint.
I didn’t dispute your point. I argued that 1 year out of 9 doesn’t equate, TO ME, with the reward of a long-term contract, breaking up a significant part of the team that WON THE CUP WITHOUT HIM.
The difference is that my point was backed up by prior evidence, whereas your point was backed up by, um, your statment that it’s going to happen, based on your flights of fancy (ie. NOTHING).
My point, while CONTINUING to aknowledge your point, is: SO WHAT?
So what if he’s proven that he can have a good playoff in 11% of the years he appears in the playoffs? That means that, on average, if he signs a long term deal for -oh, let’s pull a completely, absolutely random number out of the air- 9 years, that means we can expect him to perform up to expectations, um....how many is that...carry the 3… ONE year.
Yeah, let’s tie him up to a long term deal and cut loose guys like Cleary, Kronwall, Stuart and Filpula, guys who showed up for the playoffs and improved, rather than becoming complacent on a stacked team where he wasn’’t expected to be the stud.
And yeah, lastly, you’re right. I’m a petulant troll because I don’t want the team I follow to get rid of the WINNERS on the roster in favour of someone who can’t win, whether it’s on a team with two of the best young players of the day or on a team that WON the cup the year before.
But I appreciate that you’re allowed to have your opinion and I’m not allowed to disagree.
Thanks for coming out.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 08:36 PM ET
*#$%@& YOU, MONKEY!
Err, I mean…
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 08:37 PM ET
Garth you have a real bug up your butt about Hossa it seems, you are losing credibility quickly…
Posted by Since71 from Bucharest, Romania on 06/29/09 at 08:39 PM ET
The Free Press talked to Holland tonight, apparently. Sounds like Kenny’s waiting for Winter and Hossa to take it or leave it. There’s also an interesting comment about waiting to hear on Lilja’s injury.
Posted by Bella on 06/29/09 at 08:41 PM ET
Garth you have a real bug up your butt about Hossa it seems, you are losing credibility quickly…
Well, you think I’m losing credibility because I have a strong opinion. Colour me heart broken!
Gotta say that I hate it when I lose credibility by backing up my argument with facts and evidence.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 09:16 PM ET
It’s interesting, the defense problem that Detroit has.
Last year, we had too many defencemen and had to let Quincey go for nothing, and now, a year later, we have too many defencemen and are going to have to ship one out.
In a couple more years the Kings might to be able to put an entire defense corps on the ice made up entirely of discarded Wings prospects.
The Freep piece mentions the Wings having 12 forwards. That assumes Abdelkader will be on the squad this year. I wonder if Holland/Babcock are going to have him up or if they’re going to give him another year of “seasoning” in GR the way they did with Helm this year.
I like the idea of the added youth on the team, to up the energy quotient, but he played better when he was at centre and we’ve got 4 centremen already… It would be nice if they shifted him to the wing in GR to see if he can hack it, and if not then maybe we keep him at centre and wait till Draper’s done at the end of next season and bring Abdelkader up next year.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 09:26 PM ET
Jeebus Garth, give it up man. You’ve been labouring through a novel worth of typing and still have only had 1 thing to say. If we extrapolate this to the season, then on into the postseason, I’m going to have issues with this blog. Issues that include not reading your posts, or anyone’s responses to your antics.
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 06/29/09 at 09:34 PM ET
Hossa again needs to make one very simple decision, money or cup. The guy is 30, I can’t see him going to NY, LA or Minn and have to wait another 5+ years to get back to the SCF, but stranger things have happened.
Posted by Since71 from Bucharest, Romania on 06/29/09 at 09:57 PM ET
I believe that Hossa won’t sign before July 1 because he wants to compare various offers and consider his options. His rights won’t be traded for the same reason.
Having written that I can now say with near certainty that he will either sign prior to July 1 or have his rights traded.
I also believe Hossa to be an over-priced exceptional value. A hard-working loafer, a self-starter who needs constant attention, a limelight seeker who likes to be left alone. He definitely leaves the seat up.
Posted by monkey from All your base are belong to us on 06/29/09 at 09:11 PM ET
Hossa cannot sign with the RedWings before July 1st due to the CBA tagging rules
Posted by MsRedWingFan on 06/29/09 at 10:29 PM ET
The Freep piece mentions the Wings having 12 forwards. That assumes Abdelkader will be on the squad this year. I wonder if Holland/Babcock are going to have him up or if they’re going to give him another year of “seasoning” in GR the way they did with Helm this year.
I like the idea of the added youth on the team, to up the energy quotient, but he played better when he was at centre and we’ve got 4 centremen already… It would be nice if they shifted him to the wing in GR to see if he can hack it, and if not then maybe we keep him at centre and wait till Draper’s done at the end of next season and bring Abdelkader up next year.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 10:26 PM ET
I read an interview from Babs who said Abby would be staying down in GR for the majority of the season
Posted by MsRedWingFan on 06/29/09 at 10:36 PM ET
I read an interview from Babs who said Abby would be staying down in GR for the majority of the season
Probably for the best. A year ago we had the best farm system around, now we’re on the verge of having to call kids up before they’re ready.
I’m sure we’ll see him up for a while at least, but he was a GR rookie this year (if I remember), so he could use some maturing time.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 10:46 PM ET
Issues that include not reading your posts, or anyone’s responses to your antics.
And that affects me?
I could care less who reads my posts. I’m expressing my opinions, and if you don’t like it, don’t read it and don’t respond.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 10:48 PM ET
.
.
.
.
.
Hossa isn’t a playoff choker
Hossa’s playoff numbers since he became a 30+ goal scorer (from wikipedia):
GP G A PTS PTS/GP
2000–01 Ottawa Senators 4 1 1 2 0.50
2001–02 Ottawa Senators 12 4 6 10 0.83
2002–03 Ottawa Senators 18 5 11 16 0.89
2003–04 Ottawa Senators 7 3 1 4 0.57
2006–07 Atlanta Thrashers 4 0 1 1 0.25
2007–08 Pittsburgh Penguins 20 12 14 26 1.30
2008–09 Detroit Red Wings 22 6 9 15 0.68
His performance with the wings is easily the worst of the lengthy playoff runs he’s been on. It sucks that it happened on the wings, but no one should expect that his 2009 performance is the norm.
Still, I don’t see how we could possibly keep him. The cheapest possible option for the team is to bring Abdelkader, Leino, Helm, and Howard up. The only problem is there’d still only be 10 forwards on the roster and 1.4 million dollars in cap space left to fill the empty spots. Even by filling the roster with Griffins, the remaining spots need cap hits under 1million dollars each. Unless Ken can work some magic and find some gems discarded into the scrapheap, we might not have enough talent to roll 4 lines.
There’s also the issue about what another 10 year deal might do to the wings unresolved problem of finding a future goalie. It’s not a problem now, and the solution might already be in the wings organization. If it isn’t, the only fix might be spending big money on a free agent goaltender and if 60% of our cap is tied up in players locked in for a decade…
In Holland I trust, I just have no idea what’s in store for the team over the next two years, especially if the cap doesn’t go up. The only good things is everyone else might be worse off that we are. The Ducks D is spliting up, and if Chicago doesn’t lose much to free agency now, they are going to get torn apart by it next season. No other team in the west really concerns me at the moment and the east still doesn’t scare me.
Posted by UMcastaway from Ann Arbor on 06/29/09 at 11:27 PM ET
I could care less who reads my posts. I’m expressing my opinions, and if you don’t like it, don’t read it and don’t respond.
Posted by Garth on 06/29/09 at 11:48 PM ET
Douche status: confirmed.
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 06/29/09 at 11:32 PM ET
This never ends well for the kids.
Guys, guys, can’t you see what’s happening? You’re at each other’s throats! Don’t you see that this is exactly what Ritch Winter wants? You’re playing right into his hands and he’s laughing gleefully!
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 06/30/09 at 12:05 AM ET
I also believe Hossa to be an over-priced exceptional value. A hard-working loafer, a self-starter who needs constant attention, a limelight seeker who likes to be left alone.
Dude… it’s like you’re in my head. 
Posted by calquake on 06/30/09 at 12:13 AM ET
Don’t forget that he leaves the seat up. Explains why Sammy can’t poop in the box.
Khan(!) has an interesting scenario for picking up a third/fourth line grinder:
Former Red Wings forward Mike Knuble of Philadelphia would provide offense. Lower-priced alternatives include ...another former Red Wing, Matt Ellis of Buffalo.
Lose Hossa and get Matty Ellis back? I’m on board.
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 06/30/09 at 03:08 AM ET
The love some Wing fans exhibit for Hossa is as bizarre as the hatred some Pens fans hold for him.
Everything I’ve seen from the guy screams choker to my instincts. Anyone who publicly proclaims their desire to join a team because it offers the best chance to win the Cup needs to, y’know, step it up in the actual Stanley Cup Finals.
I will be disappointed if the Wings resign him unless it is at an (unrealistically) massive discount. Kenny should be calling him out on his pitiful SCF performance in the negotiations as we speak.
Posted by thethirdcoast from Rottenchester on 06/30/09 at 08:21 AM ET
I suspect Kenny is...in private. He wouldn’t do it in public or the press, because he’s a class act. Or, like it’s been said, maybe he genuinely WAS injured, and Kenny’s trying not to hurt his chances in free-agency if he does walk. I don’t think he should be re-signed, but I guess we’ll have to see what today and tomorrow bring.
Possibly no Knuble either, for those of you dreading such a prospect. From Chuck Gormley via Malik:
If you had hopes of the Red Wings signing former Wing Mike Knuble at a cut-rate price, Knuble tells the Courier Post’s Chuck Gormley that he wants to remain with the Philadelphia Flyers, but he’ll take no less than $2 million in salary to do so;
Excuse me while I get my Ian Laperriere pom-poms and Kool-Aid out…
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 06/30/09 at 08:28 AM ET
If Hossa goes, I want Sully or Gionta...get them both in a room, break a pool cue and tell them that we’re having try-outs. “Who wants $4 million and a Stanley Cup?”
Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 06/30/09 at 09:39 AM ET
Frankly...I’m tired of waiting. Hossa? Sign...or walk.
Posted by mrfluffy from Cincy on 06/30/09 at 09:47 AM ET
Douche status: confirmed.
Sorry, you’re right. From now on I’ll pass all my posts your way so you can approve them before I post them.
Go to hell, “Sully”, I’m not changing anything for some dick who doesn’t like what I have to say.
Alan: I’m well aware of the difference between could and couldn’t. Thanks for sharing your pretty picture though.
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 09:49 AM ET
If Hossa goes, I want Sully or Gionta...get them both in a room, break a pool cue and tell them that we’re having try-outs. “Who wants $4 million and a Stanley Cup?”
Hah, one gets a chance at the cup, one gets internal bleeding.
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 09:50 AM ET
Hah, one gets a chance at the cup, one gets internal bleeding.
And we all get entertainment. Sell tickets, throw in a steak and a beer and it’s dinner and a floor show.
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 06/30/09 at 09:57 AM ET
Kenny made the offer several days ago now. In my experience, it doesn’t take several days for someone to say “yes.” It sometimes does take several days to decide that the answer is no.
If he wants to win, though, I’m not sure where else he could go. Most if not all of the other contenders in the league don’t have the cap space to sign him--some of them don’t even have the cap space to re-sign the free agents they have right now. I guess he’s decided to cash in. He can, if necessary, shop for a contender when he becomes a free agent again.
Alan from Atlanta - Thank you for an exemplary response to a goddamn offensive example of misused language. My day is brighter for your contribution.
Posted by Bio on 06/30/09 at 10:14 AM ET
I think we should trade Rafalski and Dan Cleary for Brian Campbell.
Posted by Osrt on 06/30/09 at 10:21 AM ET
@Bio - It’s a pet peeve of mine. Glad I could make your day brighter 
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 06/30/09 at 10:28 AM ET
I think we should trade Rafalski and Dan Cleary for Brian Campbell.
Posted by Osrt on 06/30/09 at 11:21 AM ET
Thank you Osrt for the comic relief. It is needed here right about now.
What is with all the bitching? Bitches.
Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!
Posted by Kate from Pa. on 06/30/09 at 10:28 AM ET
I think we should trade Rafalski and Dan Cleary for Brian Campbell.
Posted by Osrt on 06/30/09 at 11:21 AM ET
LOL, dare I say Sasq........nope sorry just can’t do it.
Flaming commence.
Posted by Since71 from Bucharest, Romania on 06/30/09 at 10:35 AM ET
Anyone that thinks yes/no will decide the future of the Red Wings does not understand the organization, and has no confidence in Kenny.
This thread has reached previously unattained levels of stupid.
I think I would rather read about the Chiefs trip to Ikea.
Posted by HockeyTownTodd from upset when blogs dont live up to my expectations on 06/30/09 at 10:39 AM ET
Anyone that thinks yes/no will decide the future of the Red Wings does not understand the organization, and has no confidence in Kenny.
This thread has reached previously unattained levels of stupid.
I think I would rather read about the Chiefs trip to Ikea.Posted by HockeyTownTodd on 06/30/09 at 11:39 AM ET
Once again, Todd provides the voice of reason. I’m actually worried that I’m not more worried about this whole Hossa situation. I’d accept him back as a Red Wing or I’d wish him a fond farewell as a King. Either way, we have a team where we know the talent is enough to win a cup. I’m still mad at quite a few of the Wings over the way they played during the SCF, but those seven games didn’t make or break my opinion on any one of them.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/30/09 at 10:48 AM ET
The caring continuum.
Thank you Alan. That always pisses me off too.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 06/30/09 at 10:59 AM ET
From Malik:
As RedWingsCentral’s Matthew Wuest notes, the Red Wings believe that they drafted a potential first-round pick and top six forward in Tomas Tatar, who made a name for himself by scoring seven goals and 11 points at the World Junior Championships, but more than a few scouts believe that Tatar simply showed up at the Worlds and didn’t back up his dominant performance while playing for Zvolen in the Slovak ExtraLiga.
Steak Tatar. He’s a rare talent. Prime quality that needs a little aging.
Posted by CaptainDennisPolonich from Sunny SoCal on 06/30/09 at 11:03 AM ET
Remind Hossa that if he plays with the Wings until he’s 40, he can retire on a line with an up-and-coming Slovak.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 06/30/09 at 11:05 AM ET
If he wants to win, though, I’m not sure where else he could go.
I tend to think that he was offered the contract by the Wings and THAT’s when he decided he “wanted to win”. He figured what, I think, we all figured, which was that he could have a good shot at winning this year, then cash in next year.
He didn’t win this year, but I think he still wants to cash in.
I also don’t think he expected to have a choice to make this off-season. It should’ve just been “Who’s going to offer me the most”, but now maybe he’s worried that he’ll look bad if he takes more? Of maybe he’s genuinely torn between making money and playing for the Wings.
but those seven games didn’t make or break my opinion on any one of them.
It didn’t make or break my opinion (if he does sign, I’m still going to cheer for him and be ecstatic every time he scores or gets an assist or just makes a pretty play), but it did change my opinion of the priorities. And it changed my opinion of what he’s worth and for how long. To me, there are more important people to keep on the team than Hossa.
The other thing I’m worried about is getting a good (ie. worthwhile) return for whoever they have to trade if Hossa DOES sign. Last year, there were no takers for Quincey when he had to go, so he ended up being waived and the Wings got nothing in return.
That is also a possible reality when, after training camp, a decision is made on the defensemen this year (ie. Lilja, Lebda, Meech, somebody’s gotta go), and if Hossa signs, then somebody’s going to have to go, and beyond the fact that there are a handful of guys who are making less than they could/should be making, the chances of someone giving up full value for any Red Wing player is smaller, since everyone knows that we can’t afford to keep our roster intact.
So keeping Hossa not only means letting people go, it means letting some free agents go and trading other players, with the very real risk of not getting anywhere near the value for the ones that are traded.
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 11:12 AM ET
All the bickering about Hossa’s playoff performances is moot.
Reports indicate that Kenny offered Hossa a long term deal with a cap number of four million. I’m sure Hossa is willing to take less to remain with the organ-I-zation, but damn, that is nearly a fifty percent pay cut.
Monkeys will fly out of my butt before Hossa or Winter agree to a deal like that.
Posted by CaptainDennisPolonich from Sunny SoCal on 06/30/09 at 11:21 AM ET
To me, there are more important people to keep on the team than Hossa.
So keeping Hossa not only means letting people go, it means letting some free agents go and trading other players, with the very real risk of not getting anywhere near the value for the ones that are traded.
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 12:12 PM ET
This is what it’s all about. I agree, I do not like the idea of dismantling the team for one player. As far as letting go, Meech is the one I think most likely to go. He was not too impressive last season.
Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!
Posted by Kate from Pa. on 06/30/09 at 11:23 AM ET
Go to hell, “Sully”, I’m not changing anything for some dick who doesn’t like what I have to say.
Can somebody rank that on the Caring Continuum? Alan, quick!
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 06/30/09 at 11:29 AM ET
This thread has reached previously unattained levels of stupid.
***Sigh, we just keep lowering the bar, don’t we Gramps?
Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 06/30/09 at 11:45 AM ET
@Sully - I guess it means his level of caring is somewhere above “zero?” Which, I guess, is par for the course since he did say he could care less..?
I’m a computer technician, not an English major! AAHHHH!!
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 06/30/09 at 11:45 AM ET
As far as letting go, Meech is the one I think most likely to go.
I think it all depends on the cap. I don’t think Meech will be more than the occasional player he was this past year, so if we’re pressed right up against the cap this year and we need the room it would free up to trade Lilja or Lebda, it’s possible that one of them goes. Plus, those two have both been regulars in the lineup and I almost think that Holland would deal one of them, allowing him to play full-time on another team rather than to have one of them rotating in and out of the lineup.
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 12:14 PM ET
I guess it means his level of caring is somewhere above “zero?”
Well, if I didn’t care at all, I likely wouldn’t post. And I certainly wouldn’t argue as much as I have been.
*sigh*
This is what happens when you have nobody in your workplace you can talk hockey with…
And when most of your friends are Oilers or Leafs fans who don’t care about hockey between April and October…
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 12:16 PM ET
And when most of your friends are Oilers or Leafs fans who don’t care about hockey between April and October…
Don’t you have that backwards?
Oilers and Leafs care about hockey right now; they’re into the draft and free agency period. It is the only time of year they have any hope for their teams. It is from October through April that they couldn’t care less, because their teams are out of playoff contention by Halloween. 
Posted by CaptainDennisPolonich from Sunny SoCal on 06/30/09 at 12:21 PM ET
Don’t you have that backwards?
Well, actually, I think Oilers fans really only care about hockey from the early 80s to the early 90s…
And I was wrong about the Leafs fans too, but that’s because I’ve come to learn that Leafs fans don’t care about hockey at all.
Posted by Garth on 06/30/09 at 12:25 PM ET
are you kidding? before taking decision think first. time wasted for thinking is more usefull.
players earn a lot from us . but thin of u?
Posted by Fire science school on 09/11/09 at 11:38 PM ET
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I believe that Hossa won’t sign before July 1 because he wants to compare various offers and consider his options. His rights won’t be traded for the same reason.
Having written that I can now say with near certainty that he will either sign prior to July 1 or have his rights traded.
I also believe Hossa to be an over-priced exceptional value. A hard-working loafer, a self-starter who needs constant attention, a limelight seeker who likes to be left alone. He definitely leaves the seat up.
Posted by monkey from Waiting for the lambs to stop screaming on 06/29/09 at 08:11 PM ET