This is what Msg is like all the time but Dolan’s phoney attendance and the Rag fan boys in his media never reported it. That’s why when the place is half filled with Islander fans and the Knicks fans leave early it’s ignored by Brooks and Dellapina.

This is what happens to hockey in large baseball markets.

Why do you really think Dolan is suing the league, like before the lockout Msg is bleeding losses with the Rangers losing the most at 40.9m

Illich is annoyed because he cannot spend 70m, lose 30m and bankrupt the league, that was the only way he could get people to attend for years.

Cue the Dolan-Ilitch spin doctor fans and media people who need the clubs to earn their living.

Posted by NYI on 10/04/07 at 05:47 AM ET

Actually, I think Drew Sharp might have had it in his mind to write a negative story. 

A glass is half-full of beer.  An optimist says it is indeed half-full; a pessimist says it is half-empty; Drew Sharp wonders who emptied his beer glass and filled it half-full of pee.  If he has written anything positive about anything, it must have been an abberation.

Honestly, I understand why this is a big story, but I don’t care.  I don’t care how much money a movie made, how many a singer has sold, how many copies a book has in print, how many adherents a religion has, or how many fans a sport or a team has.  I don’t make my decisions based on what the majority thinks--otherwise, I’d be a fan of the NFL (or soccer), wouldn’t listen to classical music, only read books on dieting and self-improvement, and be a member of some megachurch.  I get why everyone else talks about it and enjoys either poking fun at the league or wringing their hands, but it doesn’t matter to me. 

/end rant

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 10/04/07 at 06:13 AM ET

I’m not one who’s going to pick on anybody for attendance, but yeah it is fortunate I think that most of Anaheim’s attention was devoted to the diamond yesterday.

I will say I was SHOCKED at the lukewarm Pronger reception.  Last year it was so easy to audibly identify when Pronger touched the puck, and that was before his elbow left a mark on Holmstrom’s head. 

Last night wasn’t even just about the number of people--there was a heavy seventh-man presence missing out there as well.

Posted by Earl Sleek from Anaheim, CA on 10/04/07 at 07:53 AM ET

Well see, if you’d have submitted your winning contest graphics to the Wings, it may have helped. If you look at that photo of the empty seats, it’s obvious not many wanted to be associated with the “Fire on Ice” section.

Now you go and put that Datsyuk graphic in there, and suddenly you’d have people wanting to be there.

Posted by TheFreak on 10/04/07 at 07:58 AM ET

The poor turnout is actually a GOD THING for the Wings. 
They are still running the marketing / business side like 1997.

They need to be more fan friendly, and that includes a big, bright, happy new arena in downtown.  Walking distance from Cheli’s and Hockeytown Cafe.  Like Comerica Park.  Like Ford Field.  Not the dingy old concrete warehouse down by the river.  Where can you walk to from the Joe?

It also means allowing more fan interaction with the team.  Open practices.  Players greeting fans at the door.  Meet and greet events. 

It means more Deep Digger access.  Loosen the choke collar on the media.

It also means addressing us… The fans who are on the internet.  Allow selected bloggers access to the team.  Give them a press box.

You want more ideas, Jimmy D?  Talk to
George Malik.

Posted by w2j2 on 10/04/07 at 08:08 AM ET

I actually agree with both Drew Sharp and Wojo, and even Mickey Redmond.  It’s a combo of the NHL game being watered down, too many whistles and power plays and no intensity.  How hard was it to get up for an Avs game?  Hawks game?  You felt the hatred, the intensity even before you entered the building...now they just appear to go theu the motions.  I also think that the Wings lack of “blue collar” players also hurts.  Guys like McCarty were some of the more popular guys in the city because fans related to him and his style.  The Wings play a style that’s very methodical and pretty, no real hitting and certainly no fighting or much grit.  I think that style, along with the schedule and all the powerplays and ticky tack penalties called hurts the Wings.  I don’t buy the economy thing as much, the Tigers have increased their fan base, and the Lions and Pistons do fine.  It’s the style that Wings fans can’t really relate to.  Obviously winning covers all that up, but the fans have seen all this, pretty reguar season, but get disappointed once the playoffs finish.

Posted by bababooey on 10/04/07 at 08:28 AM ET

Look at the bright side of the issue......At least the media will have to take a few days off from the
“Chris Chelios is OLD” bromides.

Posted by dougie on 10/04/07 at 08:46 AM ET

Agree, Baroque.  But at the same time I feel that if ‘Hockeytown’ is having attendance problems it is a sign of bigger things a foot.  Yes the economy is bad.  Yes fans may be ho hum about the regular season.  But this is the Wings for godsakes!  Maybe Chief is right about the Euro heavy roster, though.  And the lack of blue collar guys like McCarty could hurt.  Although Drake certainly got some fans’ attention last night by skate and by fist. The lockout, which judging by some of the INSANE salaries over the last two years, was all for naught.  Instead of making the game profitable and popular it seems to have instead brightened the lights on the leagues already glaring problems.  It’s easy to blame Bettman, and I do, but I blame even more the folks who keep signing his check.  And maybe this is a post for another site, but I think the Nashville experiment needs to end.  And not by moving to KC! It pains me to say, bc I love being able to attend NHL games.  But if the prospective owners can’t foot the bill themselves how in the hell will the pay player salaries. Do we need another Columbus or Florida or Washington?  If you can’t get people to watch Ducks/Wings I’m guessing seats don’t sell for those other teams either.

Posted by Andrew from Nashville on 10/04/07 at 08:57 AM ET

It is disappointing to see the empty seats at the Joe.  I read Buccigross’ column about how the Wings maybe lack “personality"and I just couldn’t see it last night. I found the game really exciting.  It did seem like a long summer and then all of a sudden I saw Chris Pronger and the hate was back!  It is sad that fans are not turning out and I hope this spurs the Wings organization to work on making it more fan friendly.  Before it is too late.

Posted by hockeychic from Denver, CO on 10/04/07 at 09:34 AM ET

For me, i think economy does have a lot to do with it. There’s been a lot of blue collar layoffs in MI. And last I checked, it wasn’t cheap to go to a Wings game.
You could make the argument that it’s not affecting the Lions, Tigers or Pistons. But to me those fans are all around sport fans, and hockey is probably lower on the list. Hockey fans seem more dedicated to the sport. And hockey is obviously out of favor with Main Stream Media. The lead sports story on the radio this morning was the Wings “empty seats”.

Location may be a small factor. With many layoffs in the Detroit area, those fans aren’t going. But what about the other parts of MI where employment is stable? Here in Grand Rapids, it’ takes nearly 3 hours one way to get to a Wings home game. I could just as easily go see them in Chicago for same amount of travel time. And when they play in the middle of the week, it’s a looooooooong day. Especially when you work the next day. If Wings were closer, i’d go see them more.

I don’t think it’s the Euro-heavy roster is too much of a factor. Yeah, Detroit, home of Mo’town and Ford autos makes you think American. But as a fan of the Wings, I don’t care what nationality they are. I just want them to play well, I appreciate the sport for the talent, competitiveness, and history. The Captian was Canadian and we didn’t care, we adopted him. Same with the other big guys now, Dats, Lids, Zetts. We don’t care where they’re from, they are great players.

What really stinks is playing the same teams so many times. Waters the game down and makes it boring.

I hate to say it, but hockey isn’t “main stream” enough here in the states to warrant the adored media attention, lucrative t.v. contracts, and baseball/basketball type salaries. And the media that does cover it locally, Helen St. James, Kulfan, the Free Press, etc. are hacks. They’re lazy, uninspiring, and predictable. Then the big guys try to follow the ESPN template. And we know that ESPN isn’t exactly on good terms with the NHL. Plus, you can see all the other big sports on your local t.v. programming for the most part. With hockey you need cable – an added expense, they aren’t main stream enough to show the games.

Posted by TheFreak on 10/04/07 at 10:19 AM ET

I’m paying $45 today to see hockey of a totally different level here in Sweden!  It would probably be on par with AHL at best.

People in Detroit must be very spoiled by pro sports or they simply do not know what they are missing.

Posted by Erik Nilsson on 10/04/07 at 10:30 AM ET

People in Detroit must be very spoiled by pro sports or they simply do not know what they are missing.

I’m sure they are.  At the beginning of the season it’s expected that Detroit will make the playoffs, and the regular season is seen by some as a formality.  I don’t think there is any way to not make fans take things for granted, though.  It’s human nature.

I doubt that the Euro-heavy roster is an issue.  And if some sap in the front office decides it is, and the way to win fans back is to trade Zetterberg for a mess of North American prospects, I will personally drive down to find out who it is, hunt him/her down, and give them an atomic wedgie like you wouldn’t believe.

(As soon as I get together bail money!)

I know it’s hockey season, but I’m still in a baseball mode, primarily because of the weather.  I can’t watch baseball early in the season for the same reason--baseball wasn’t meant to be played when it is still snowing out.

It’s a combination of factors, as attendance problems are in every city, but I really wish the media could move on.  We get it, people aren’t watching hockey, come up with a different story, you deadbeats!  I don’t think any other sport frets and hand-wrings over attandance like hockey.  It’s like a girl who’s been dumped, and for weeks after keeps asking her friends what she did wrong, why she couldn’t keep him, and pays no attention when her friends tell her she didn’t do anything wrong, it just wasn’t meant to be.  There are going to be non-sellouts, but it happens.  A lot of cities would kill for the kind of attendance the Red Wings have, even if it is falling off a lot.  I’m sure the Nashville fans who want to keep their Predators would be ecstatic.  I guess I just wish that the media would find another song.  That one is old and tired.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 10/04/07 at 11:44 AM ET

Baroque - agreed.  A lot of people are still set for baseball, especially where I live right now there is a lot of excitement.  I couldn’t get my boyfriend to watch hockey last night, he was all caught up in the playoffs and said “get back to me in December.” It is what it is.  Also, the Joe is bigger than a lot of other hockey rinks around the league so the attendance they had last night would be pretty close to a sell out in other cities.

As I said earlier, I hope it spurs some changes within the organ-I-zation and some reaching out to the fans.  The Wings can not take the fans for granted and the economy doesn’t help things.

Posted by hockeychic from Denver, CO on 10/04/07 at 12:01 PM ET

Hockeychic--I hope it spurs changes, too.

And congratulations on the big Rockies win last night!  Now if only the Cubs can even up their series…

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 10/04/07 at 12:15 PM ET

Q. Is there a four-sport city in the US that maintains a near-packed attendance at all four venues?  I could be wrong, but I don’t know of one.  So, if four successful teams cannot pack their arenas in a good economy, what does it say about a city which is showing the largest drop in home values throughout the whole country? 

So maybe it’s a combination of everything mentioned in the articles and comments above; but maybe the three biggest factors are 1) the other Detroit teams’ recent success, 2) the venues, and 3) the economy.

Think about this: at the birth of the “Hockeytown” slogan, the Tigers were pathetic, the Pistons were average (in between successful eras), and the Lions were horrible and at the Silverdome.  Easy to be fired up about the Wings back then!  And now: brand new downtown venues for Tigers and Lions, relatively high sucess of Tigers and Pistons this year, and even a great start of the Lions right now… How do the Wings---the JLA, European, post-lockout, post-Stevie, central division, average post-season Wings---have a chance? 

Isn’t there something to “there is only so much entertainment dollar to go around”?  If the average Detroiter is equally interested in NFL and NHL, tell me he’s not saving up for Lion tickets this week and, at best, waiting to see if he should splurge for Wings tickets if/when they make it to the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs.

What it does show is how much of the “Hockeytown” fan base is fickle.  All along the fan base was dependent on a lot more factors than just love of the sport and the winged wheel.  And isn’t that true of the fan base of almost any team/city (Cubs & Red Sox being major exceptions through their very-rough-yet-well-attended seasons). 

All in all, it seems to be a perfect storm set to mock the beloved moniker of Hockeytown. 

Well, it was fun while it lasted.  Guess it’s just us hockey fans now.  Beer me.

Posted by Ryan from Detroit on 10/04/07 at 03:58 PM ET

Economy?  You bet.  200,000 jobs lost over the last 5 years, most of which in the auto industry, where businesses believed buying in corporate lower-bowl seats to woo clients and give their workers a carrot--want to get that production quota up, Fred?  How about seeing that Wings-Sharks tilt?

The schedule is obviously an issue.  Seeing Columbus and even St. Louis, Chicago, and Nashville 8 times is dreadful hockey, and the worst of the over-divisional sked reared its ugly head when the Wings played a lovely slate of Columbus-Columbus-Minnesota-Minnesota-Minnesota-Columbus-Columbus games around Christmas last year.  We’re an Original Six town that hosts home games against the Leafs, Habs, B’s, and Rags once every three years, and that’s just wrong.

The lockout, stung the hell out of the Wings in a sport-crazy town with all sorts of alternatives--especially because the Red Wings were one of the hardest-hit teams, forced to halve their payroll and buy out Whitney, McCarty, and Hatcher because Bettman did his best to screw the biggest-market teams...which lead to fan resentment of the Wings for charging the same prices for half the payroll.

I know people who simply don’t follow hockey anymore because they were dedicated fans who a) learned to live without hockey during the lockout and b) saw Yzerman and Shanahan’s departures signs that it was time to move on, and I know people who cut their “cut” of shared season tickets when the Wings’ payroll was slashed. 

Ticket prices are a huge issue--as are the Wings’ ticket pricing policies.  Fans are still disgusted with the Wings’ playoff ticket policies--pay for two rounds in advance, and get your money back four months later--and the fact that the team responded to empty seats for the vast majority of the 06-07 season as well as the playoffs (where they doubled ticket prices to make up for the revenues lost to the NHL’s playoff-based revenue sharing program) by proudly charging full price for exhibition games and capping those “seat-filler seats” to 300--according to what I’ve read, the entire spectrum of seats whose prices have been chopped down, not just the $9 seats--it pisses people off to no end.

But the fact that the media’s censured, unable to even render players as more than one-dimensional, unwilling to deal with the Wrath of Hahn if they dare to propose a particularly revealing or innovative story, used to the fact that if one newspaper gets the clearance to write a profile of Jimmy Howard, the others must follow suit, that the organization is so jittery about upsetting the NHL apple cart that they make Fox Sports Detroit repeat Red Wings Weekly segments and refuse to spice up their 10-year-old game night presentation with actual replays of disputed goals, penalties, or big hits...all that counts.

So does the ridiculous lack of marketing.  The Fire on Ice commercials are hilarious in their annoying nature and lack of creativity.  Very short highlights interspersed over some lady saying “tick tock” because the season is upon us = stupid.  Actually marketing a player?  Hells, no!  Not since Hockeytown Authentics revealed that Kris Draper and Steve Yzerman were hiding in the racks!  Is Dominik Hasek fiddling with that catch glove for sale, waffling as to whether he should buy it back from the team?  Probably, but they’d never make fun of his finicky nature…

Original media on the Wings’ website?  In an era where there are player blogs, Q and A’s, web-only media and “TV” productions, “bloggers” who travel with the team and update fans on day-to-day activities, and post-game highlights, the Wings went crazy and got themselves a staff writer who doesn’t have a spell-checker, and Red Wings World?  Spend $40, get Inside Hockeytown articles and a message board for your trouble, congratulations. 

And fan access?  Fans are expected to show up at games, feel grateful, stay the damn hell away from the ice, bench, and tunnel, and get the hell out when the game is over--and don’t dare dilly dally near the player lot. 

The fact that the Wings held an open practice before January is amazing, but I swear, Hahn looked like he was being tortured when he appeared on the ice at the end of the morning skate.  Draper and Maltby were signing autographs in the tunnel, and that made the man twitch. 

Giving them access to players and coaches for maybe an autograph, or even better, a conversation, that doesn’t require $500 to play poker with the Wings, or $250 for the “Taste of Hockeytown?” No way, man!  That’s just crazy!  Meet and greets?  Q and A’s?  Promotions where multiple members of the team show up in the community, promote a charity, and hang out for a while?  Humbug! 

And, lest we forget, blogger access?  Nein, nein, nein, das ist Verboten!  All bloggers don’t exist, and if they do, they’re Eklunds! 

There are alternatives in the Detroit sports marketplace now, and the Red Wings are only starting to realize that that means they have to compete for fan bucks that are stretched perilously thin by the crap economy around here...but when the most common refrain from the average fan at a Wings game is, “I could take my kid to a Whalers game for a total of $50, including concessions and parking, and meet the players after the game, and I’m wasting my money here,” you’ve got problems, problems that require a change of philosophy and an understanding that the “New NHL” and the advent of something the team tries to ignore, our beloved Interweb, means that fans have the ability to discuss what the best teams do to invest in developing a relationship with fans who become loyal to their team because of it, and what the teams that don’t do it could do to earn back those fans--and bucks--they’ve let stray.

There are a lot of things going on here, many factors as to why the Wings are struggling to sell overpriced tix and put butts in seats--and keep them there--and we fans are giving them ridiculously good feedback which is being ignored across the board.

That’s gotta change, first and foremost.  We’re giving them the answers and relatively cheap and easy solutions to their problems, but we’re seen as too impetuous to be heard...when the reality is that most of us want nothing more than Hockeytown to return in full force, the Joe to be filled to the brim, and our Red Wings to receive the frenzied support that their spectacular on-ice product and off-ice personalities deserve.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 10/04/07 at 08:50 PM ET

...I will personally drive down to find out who it is, hunt him/her down, and give them an atomic wedgie like you wouldn’t believe.

Nice.

In liew of a Wing front office hack: Baroque, might I suggest you meet Mr. Bettman…

I don’t think any other sport frets and hand-wrings over attandance like hockey.

True.  But the NHL relies almost exclusively on gate money (ok, cbc not withstanding), unlike the three major sports that all have lucrative tv deals.  The fact that the Wings consitently have solid tv ratings is moot.  In the NHL it’s all about attendance, so when attendance goes down handwringing is probably the appropriate response.

Unfortunately it’s the wrong people doing the handwringing.  You’re right, the deep diggers need to find a more interesting story and avoid the easy pot-shots (nice analogy on Not-so Sharp too btw).  It’s Gary Bettman, the NHL, the organ-I-zation and it’s ‘PR’ dept that all need to be wringing their hands and taking this seriously.

I do not know what the answer is, but at least I’m not collecting a paycheck to know it.

Posted by Hoser from Downer Peninsula, Michigan on 10/04/07 at 08:55 PM ET

In liew of a Wing front office hack: Baroque, might I suggest you meet Mr. Bettman…

Don’t tempt me.  I’ve considered multiple options...some involving scorpions or poison arrow frogs.  Or Ebola if I’m having a bad day. 

Unfortunately it’s the wrong people doing the handwringing.

THAT is exactly what I was trying to get at (need to keep comments short when typing during breaks at work).  It is an issue, and an important one, but the press writing about it doesn’t help.  The front office losing sleep over it might (eventually).

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 10/04/07 at 09:22 PM ET

If Mr. Ilitch were to compare the PR involving the Tigers (interviews, articles, Q&A;sessions, and player openness) to the PR of the Red Wings, he would see one BIG reason why the Red Wings are losing fans.
Also, Joe Louis Arena sucks.  Dirty, old, inconvenient arena.
Last but not least, the new style of hockey being promoted by the NHL is BORING.  Look at the major growth of MMA competitions.  Fans loved the hits and the fights!  Thanks to Bettman and his crowd, all that is left of hockey is a shell of the game.
I still love the Red Wings, but watching the game as it is now is painful.

Posted by George Houchens from Pinckney, Michigan on 10/04/07 at 11:01 PM ET

Ranking of reasons for the drop-off in attendance:
#1. “It’s the economy, stupid” - troubles for both employees and employers (each are buying less)
#2. “Tigers rise from the ashes” - some of the $ now being spent on going to Tigers games came out of RW budgets
#3.  “NHL ruins the game” - boring, lower quality product on the ice, bad schedules, less fighting when MMA is growing, etc. etc.
#4.  “It’s the total experience” - going to a game at the Joe is really not that pleasant.
#5.  “HD is da bomb!” - when you can actually see the puck, staying home is more of a viable option.

Posted by Dobsonion from Saline on 10/05/07 at 07:56 AM ET

I’m with Baroque—I don’t care. Doesn’t matter. Not my problem.

However, with all the possible reasons (and it seems there are many) the marketing dept should be on top of it. It just shows how out of touch they are with their customers. Tastes change, circumstances change, people get bored with the same old thing. You cannot depend on people buying your product this week because they bought it last week. If seats are empty—fill ‘em. Give ‘em away for nothing. Seeing empty seats on the tele only tells people not to come—‘cause no one else is. I’m no expert (obviously) but it seems like they have forgotten that they are trying to sell something.

Posted by mark from scotland on 10/05/07 at 11:05 AM ET

...it seems like they have forgotten that they are trying to sell something.

That implies that they once knew… I’m not convinced they ever did.

Posted by Hoser from Downer Peninsula, Michigan on 10/05/07 at 11:41 AM ET

Really, now, I couldn’t care less.  So the Joe doesn’t sell out—as long as the Wings continue to do what they’ve done for the past ten years—put a good and interesting team on the ice, make it to the playoffs, with deep runs in many if not most years, then it’s going to be *#$%@& Hockeytown to me.

Posted by Chris from Detroit, exiled in DC on 10/05/07 at 11:46 AM ET