as much as i respect sundin i think his heart belongs to toronto. but then again i recall the ray bouque situation and it could possibly work. hullie and lucky luc are good examples of the right signing at the right time but they weren’t rentals and stayed in detroit for a season or two after winning the cup. also there’s larry murphy. another good pick up. lets go red wings!!!!!

Posted by kate from pa. on 02/22/08 at 12:29 PM ET

Based on his previous comments RE: salary, I could definitely see Zetterberg taking less to build a stronger team. But if any of this is true, the question I still have is who goes the other way?

Posted by YzermanZetterberg on 02/22/08 at 12:40 PM ET

Interesting facts about Sundin and McCabe.  Hell, maybe the Wings bagged both!! 

The swirl of speculation!!!

Refresh, Refresh, Refresh!!!!

Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 02/22/08 at 12:45 PM ET

I bet the Wings have a great offer on the table, but it’s contingent on Sundin signing for a few years.

Posted by bababooey on 02/22/08 at 12:50 PM ET

Regarding Sundin and McCabe, the flu is going around the Toronto team, but the name of the flu has yet to be determined.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 02/22/08 at 12:55 PM ET

Hahaha, Paul’s got a good point!

As far as hypotheticals are concerned, picking up Sundin is worth quite a bit as long as it comes with some sort of extension and Z takes a little less. Frankly, it’s even worth Filppula because it gives the Wings a great chance to win this year, and the next two years if they were to extend him.

If they can’t extend him, it’s most likely a waste. For a straight rental of Sundin, Filppula, Howard, Ericsson, and the ‘08 first round pick are all untouchable. Hudler is borderline.

Again, this is just me speculating (not trying to pull a Dwayne here), but perhaps a deal where Cleary goes to the Leafs with an extension, and Sundin goes to the Wings with an extension, plus Hudler, Meech or Quincey, and a pick other than this year’s first rounder makes sense. Would you guys be willing to part with Cleary even though he’s Mike Babcock’s golden boy?

Hah, I’m sure we’re all wrong, but it is fun to discuss!

Posted by Nathan on 02/22/08 at 01:18 PM ET

I know that Holland will not part with any roster play or top prospect without an extra few years from Sundin.  If Sundin were willing to not only waive his NTC but sign for an extra 2 yrs then everyone sans Z and Datsyuk are on the table.

Posted by bababooey on 02/22/08 at 01:31 PM ET

Cleary didn’t even enter my mind, but is definitely a possibility in terms of offering immediate impact. With Toronto’s building for the future theme, I was thinking more of a package involving Kindl, perhaps another prospect (mid-level), Hudler and a pick (not 2008 1st round). It’s probably not enough, though…

Posted by YzermanZetterberg on 02/22/08 at 01:32 PM ET

There seems to be a little Wing bias in your trade proposal, Nathan.  I’m not saying I disagree with you as to who or what should be untouchable on the Wings side of the possible trade, but you have to realize that Detroit’s negotiating from the weaker side of the deal, especially given the recent slide and injury situations.  So if there is a deal, I’d look for at least Filppula and possibly the 08 or 09 first rounder.

With that being said, however, I don’t think the Wings will go after Sundin that hard, because of the price. 

Good food for thought, though.

Posted by Dan from PA on 02/22/08 at 01:36 PM ET

” Mats Sundin, Bryan McCabe, and Andrew Raycroft were all absent from practice today with the flu. TSN”  from the round the league updates section. 
don’t mean too much, i guess.  but it’s probably true.

Posted by ColdWar on 02/22/08 at 01:54 PM ET

I disagree with Dan, that trade if anything seems biased toward Toronto in the LT. Cleary is a 40-50 point player right now and is in the mid-point of his career.

Posted by Chris from Grand Rapids on 02/22/08 at 02:14 PM ET

Still too early to get too excited, as Sundin and McCabe could just have the flu and nothing more.  However, I think these two are the best avenue for us.  We need secondary scoring and we need a bit of size.  Not a terribly urgent need, but if the past two weeks have pointed out anything, it’s that we’re just a bit thin and could use some depth and size.  Sundin could provide scoring and size up front and McCabe could provide that bit of skill and grit we lost with Markov.

Also, I’d put Cleary on the untouchable list with Z, Datsyuk, Fil, Homer, Franzen.  I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we went on that losing streak when he went down.  It might be a challenge to sign him on the offseason, but Detroit resurrected his career, and his blend of size, skill, and grit is perfect for this team.

I’d be very happy if they dealt for Sundin and McCabe.  I’d be sort of dissappointed if they just went after Fedorov, and I’d certainly be concerned will standing still and praying for healthy Rafalski, Lidstrom, Hasek, Cleary, Kronwall, and Zetterberg by a week or so prior to the playoffs.

Thanks for the continued great blog, Chief.

Posted by TDeters on 02/22/08 at 02:23 PM ET

I actually agree with you Dan, and I knew it was biased. I was more or less trying to make the point that Filppula is going to be really hard to pry from the organization (Jokinen is probably the only name that’s been mentioned as “available” that would be worth letting Flip go). The CBA makes rental players suicide, even for teams with lots of organizational depth or first and second round picks.

Six years ago, given a situation with similar players, I’d have made the deal in a heartbeat. But with the new CBA, unproven commodities like Filppula (yes, he’s not fully proven yet, nobody yell at me) are more valuable than proven ones near the end of their career. Even if Flip doesn’t pan out to the type of player we think he should and could be, he still gives the club a really cheap contract for a few seasons for a guy that at the very least will play 15 minutes per night, kill penalties, and backcheck really well. Even if you assume Flip will never be more than that, you’ve still hurt your team big time once the rental walks on you.

Posted by Nathan on 02/22/08 at 02:29 PM ET

Remember also that Detroit is supposedly the front runner for Fabian Brunnstrom, if that’s the case, we can afford to lose some prospects because he’s like a lottery pick

Posted by bababooey on 02/22/08 at 02:55 PM ET

Kahn (!) reports that Babcock and Holland say no push for Sundin:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2008/02/holland_says_no_players_have_a.html

Posted by TDeters on 02/22/08 at 03:11 PM ET

I can’t see Detroit giving up what Toronto is going to want for Sundin.

That team has more holes than a screen door right now, and they need to trade assets for as much as they can get right now, if they can.

The best bet for the front office is find some GM desperate to make the playoffs and willing to toss a handful of prospects to Toronto in return for a porven name commodity, since he figures if he doesn’t make the playoffs he’s fired anyway, so why not take a crazy chance?

Fletcher won’t find that level of desperation in Detroit - and he has already said that he won’t threaten Sundin if he invokes his no-trade clause, and also that he won’t even approach him unless the offer is a serious one - and that he won’t spring a deal on him at five minutes to three on deadline day.

I really see Mats Sundin staying in Toronto - unless the din gets so loud that he is driven out by the media hysteria.

(And even if he doesn’t have the flu, he might be staying away from the rink to get some peace and quiet.  Repeating time after time that he doesn’t want to leave hasn’t gotten the press off his back about being traded, so he might have decided that since they aren’t listening to a word he says he may as well just avoid them.  I sure would.)

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 02/22/08 at 03:27 PM ET

porven = proven 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 02/22/08 at 03:29 PM ET

Well, alternately Holland could be looking at Fedorov, McCarty and the return to health of Lidstrom, Kronwall, Cleary, and Rafalski as his trade package.  Fedorov and Cleary provide secondary scoring, Cleary and McCarty provide needed toughness, and Kronwall, Lidstrom and Rafalski return to provide blue-line depth. 

I’d like to see Sundin and McCabe or a similar d-man added instead, but I guess Holland has to worry about how much to give up.

Posted by TDeters on 02/22/08 at 03:40 PM ET

what about Barrett Jackman and Marty Lapointe?  I also wouldn’t mind Darcy Tucker either.

Posted by bababooey on 02/22/08 at 03:45 PM ET

Baroque, ultimately, you are right. As Spector would say, Sundin has a NTC and has said he wants to be in Toronto, win or lose.

But, it is interesting to discuss what it would take. The life of a GM must be very stressful, but at times, incredibly entertaining.

Posted by Nathan on 02/22/08 at 03:47 PM ET

Jackman and/or Lapointe would be okay, but they really aren’t that much more than McCarty being signed and Cleary returning from injury, don’t you think?  The point about giving something up for Fedorov or something more for Sundin would be that you get a bit of size along with some solid help in the scoring department.  Jackman and Lapointe would provide grit, but not that much scoring (although I haven’t looked at their stats and am just going on impression).

Posted by TDeters on 02/22/08 at 03:51 PM ET

But, it is interesting to discuss what it would take.

But I thought we’d already figured that out.  Remember, Nathan?

Trade Sundin for the right to talk to Ken Holland, and then Ken would drive like a bat out of hell back across the border with the defecting center. 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 02/22/08 at 03:54 PM ET

Ah, yes, I almost forgot. That was when I informed the public that Ken Holland drives a Toyota. Which I know because one of my sources told me. But I can’t tell you who the source is or even who the source works for because that would damage their journalistic integrity, somehow, instead of improving it…

Posted by Nathan on 02/22/08 at 04:22 PM ET

I hope you don’t mind if I plug the blog a bit, Bill.  I posted the interview clip, which you can listen to here, and at the 7:40 mark, Berger claims that a half a dozen Wings, not all of them Swedes, have lobbied Holland to push for Sundin’s services.  That’s the gist of it.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 02/22/08 at 04:50 PM ET

Here’s one for you, Chief.

How about Danny Markov? Rumor (rumour…) had it that his contract had an out if he wanted to go back to the NHL. Perhaps those of us that actually understand the details of player movement under the CBA and IIHF (dis)agreement (everyone looks at George) can debunk that possibility right away?

It seems so obvious you think Holland would’ve turned that stone over by now, so I get the feeling that either the out isn’t in the contact, or even if it were, somehow he wouldn’t be eligible for this year’s playoff.

Posted by Nathan on 02/22/08 at 04:50 PM ET

Markov would have to be waived as he’s played one or more games with a professional team outside North America.  Even if he were to mend bridges with the Wings and leave Vityaz Chekhov right before the Superleague playoffs to “jump” back into the NHL, he’d have to be placed on re-entry waivers, and somebody else would pick him off.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 02/22/08 at 04:58 PM ET

George you are too good. Here’s another plug for you… if anyone isn’t already a daily Snapshots reader, you need to be. And the kind of knowledge George just gave us is exactly why.

Posted by Nathan on 02/22/08 at 05:01 PM ET

Here is one good reason NOT to think about Sundin. Emotional stability.

The man clearly loves Toronto and does not want to leave the leaves. If he is moved, by pressure or quasi-voluntarily, I’m not sure he would be in an emotional space to connect with new teammates and such. Although he would be familiar with his Swedish Team mates, Babs has no nationalist sentiment when creating lines.

I don’t think I would want someone like him at this stage in our lockerroom. He may be able to suck it up professionally but passion not professionalism wins series.

Posted by srt on 02/22/08 at 07:09 PM ET

I don’t see Sundin leaving either but what do I know.  No, not LaPointe, ever.  He’s useless.  Jackman, I could see maybe.  I still really don’t want to mess with the team so close to playoffs.

Posted by hockeychic from Denver, CO on 02/22/08 at 11:32 PM ET