God I’m glad I’m not a Wing fan. Are you given “I’m a Douche” tshirts or hats when you become one? I think Preds fans are well aware of Chelios’s accomplishments and respect that. But he can still be a whiney jackass grandpa on the ice. Enjoy your early departure from the playoffs.

Posted by Hick from Not Detroit, Thank God on 03/21/08 at 12:42 PM ET

No need for an extra “s” after the apostrophe used in Chelios’ name (see?).

Yes, we’re given those t-shirts.  We enjoy flaunting our knowledge of basic hygiene. From my experiences in Tennessee, it’s not common to every state.

Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 03/21/08 at 12:46 PM ET

I was at the game last night and the stupidity ran wild, the Chelios chants don’t stop with the supposed adult fan base; there was a 6 year old behind me and his 5 year old sister who were chanting “CHELIOS SUCKS BIG ONES” and when the Wings took the lead for good it changed to “REDWINGS SUCK BIG ONES"… There was another person with a REDWINGSUK jersey, it’s like all of their junior high chants all involve “sucking” maybe as they say in the South, the Predators are “sucking hind teet” but their fans for the most part don’t follow the league outside of the Sommet Center. Anyone else notice when Downey was on the ice, Tootoo was quiet ?  Yelling at Drake across the ice was nice also, if anyone on the ice played like a sissy, it was Jordan Toooo.

Posted by Yzerman19 from Nashville on 03/21/08 at 12:48 PM ET

If any fanbase could write the book about early departures in the playoffs it’s Pred fans.  Please get the 8th seed.  Loved seeing the octopus hit the ice last night after the Wings wrapped the game up.  Had to sting the fans at the SoGay after they just had what was likely the final nail in the coffin of their chances to make the playoffs this season.

Posted by Dave on 03/21/08 at 12:50 PM ET

Hick, you’re a turd.  Enjoy your exit from Gary’s porcelain throne.

Posted by Hoser from Downer Peninsula, Michigan on 03/21/08 at 12:51 PM ET

The Predator fans, or PRETENDERS if you will, talk about the Wings playoff history, but this is a team that has never won a road playoff game, needless to say a series.  Perhaps they should turn that energy inward and fix the many problems they have within that organization and talent pool before they go ripping on a team who for the past 15 years has been the best in hockey.....

Posted by Yzerman19 from Nashville on 03/21/08 at 12:58 PM ET

What Nashville fans do to Chelios and every other opposing player is called taunting. I’m a Nashville fan and i know Chelios is a great player, better leader, and i would love to have him play for the Preds. But as long as he plays for anyone but the Preds, we’ll tell him he’s a sissy. Would you honestly expect us to cheer him?

He gets into it too, by the way.
Excerpt from a friend of mine’s Flickr stream:
“This guy kept yelling at Chelios while he was warming up. Nothing real nasty, just stuff like..."hey old man!!!” “you going to cry tonight?”...etc. This picture is after getting heckled back...and not with words. See next picture...”

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 01:04 PM ET

What Nashville fans do to Chelios and every other opposing player is called taunting. I’m a Nashville fan and i know Chelios is a great player, better leader, and i would love to have him play for the Preds. But as long as he plays for anyone but the Preds, we’ll tell him he’s a sissy. Would you honestly expect us to cheer him?

He gets into it too, by the way.
Excerpt from a friend of mine’s Flickr stream:
“This guy kept yelling at Chelios while he was warming up. Nothing real nasty, just stuff like..."hey old man!!!” “you going to cry tonight?”...etc. This picture is after getting heckled back...and not with words. See next picture...”

As for the Wing’s chances in the playoffs and the Preds chances of getting there… The Wing’s are playing well, and they’ve battled through injuries impressivly, but given the age and injury problems you’ve had so far, a long playoff run against a collection of Ducks, Sharks, and who knows who else will be tough.

I’ll be the first to admit we have a lot of issues. There’s a large contingent of fans asking for Trotz’s head and a lot of frustration all around to say the least. I think we’re (unfortunately) in the “just happy to be here” category, which is probably one reason we’re not doing better (see above calls for Trotz’s job).

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 01:09 PM ET

What Nashville fans do to Chelios and every other opposing player is called taunting. I’m a Nashville fan and i know Chelios is a great player, better leader, and i would love to have him play for the Preds. But as long as he plays for anyone but the Preds, we’ll tell him he’s a sissy. Would you honestly expect us to cheer him?

He gets into it too, by the way.
Excerpt from a friend of mine’s Flickr stream:
“This guy kept yelling at Chelios while he was warming up. Nothing real nasty, just stuff like..."hey old man!!!” “you going to cry tonight?”...etc. This picture is after getting heckled back...and not with words. See next picture...”

As for the Wing’s chances in the playoffs and the Preds chances of getting there… The Wing’s are playing well, and they’ve battled through injuries impressively, but given the age and injury problems you’ve had so far, a long playoff run against a collection of Ducks, Sharks, and who knows who else...will be tough to say the least.

I’ll be the first to admit we have a lot of issues. There’s a large contingent of fans asking for Trotz’s head and a lot of frustration all around to say the least. I think we’re (unfortunately) in the “just happy to be here” category, which is probably one reason we’re not doing better (see above calls for Trotz’s job).

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 01:14 PM ET

Agreed about Franzen.  All we need is for him to get fighting lessons over the summer, maybe a bit of Karate and some conditioning to enhance his rage, and he’ll be one of the most feared players in the league.  As long as we can keep him in OUR top six for years to come…

Poor Bubba.  All he’s got left is to be bitter about his far more successful older brother.

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from the turgid script of a Kubrick movie on 03/21/08 at 01:16 PM ET

Hockey Gods, please, by some 105 mph Ericsson slap shot or a Lidstrom chip play leading up to a triple-deked, top-shelfed Datsyukian goal past Mason, make the Preddies fans grow the hell up.

Eight years and they still act like Ma Bettman won’t breast feed them anymore.

Posted by SYF from Las Vegas, NV on 03/21/08 at 01:21 PM ET

Nice to see a Pred fan who is on the level of reality.  Not all of the problems there are Trotz’ fault, the Leopold fire sale did some damage, and the lack of goaltending is something they should address ASAP until Jeremy Smith is ready for the NHL.

Posted by Yzerman19 from Nashville on 03/21/08 at 01:30 PM ET

a triple-deked, top-shelfed Datsyukian goal past Mason

I think you’re not getting the full implication of the critisism leveled against Dat-suck...sorry habit...Datsyuk by the commentator and my fellow Preds fans.

Scoring goals against Mason isn’t any big deal right now. I’d stand a fair chance. Dasyuk didn’t have a horrible game last night, but he wasn’t the impact player he (occasionally) can be until late when the game was pretty much in hand, and as such, didn’t deserve a 3rd star.  This is also part of a long discussion going on among Preds fans that just because you hit the stat sheet, doesn’t mean you should automatically get a star.

But meh...I also find it amazing how much we apparently get under your collective skins. You aren’t encouraging us to stop.

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 01:36 PM ET

Nice to see a Pred fan who is on the level of reality.
Um...thanks?

Not all of the problems there are Trotz’ fault
No, but enough of them are. As my wife said, he’s been pulling goalies like someone switching lines at the grocery store looking for the faster one. Always a losing prospect. Ellis has been more than decent (and better than Mason) but Trotz keeps pulling him too early and is gonna ruin him. Playing Bochenski/Smithson/Peverley (recent low-ball trade who hasn’t played but 3 games, 4th line PK specialist, and a minor league call-up) after a long TV time out with 4:22 left in the game and down 2 goals doesn’t really speak well to his coaching ability either.

The Leopold fire sale did some damage
Incalculable damage. I still don’t get how the league allows a guy to fire sale the team, cut the marketing budget to $0 (literally), then sell the team and buy a direct competitor (in the same conference) within the same year! Huh?

and the lack of goaltending is something they should address ASAP until Jeremy Smith is ready for the NHL
The topic of the day among most Preds fans on discussion boards is if we should call up Pekka Rinne, who is the presumptive future starter for the Preds.

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 01:45 PM ET

The difference between a game at the Joe and a game in Nashville is that you get dirty looks and a few, “Watch your damn language” from the older gents, and if you keep heckling, as I learned the hard way, you’re told that if you don’t mind your language and be more respectful, and that if you choose to continue to taunt (God forbid that Chris Chelios picked on the Preds fans right back), you should go to a U of M game instead and find yourself with the drunk frat boys that suit your maturity level.  If you do not heed that warning to at least show some class to players not named Sergei Fedorov, you might have yourself an unhappy dad with a kid at the rink telling you he’ll pop you in the head.

The chants at the Preds’ games, from “Chelios is a sissy” to “Hasek is a baby,” the, “It’s all your fault” taunt at the goalie, they’re all directly lifted from college hockey chants, some of which, including the, “Goalie, goalie, YOU SUCK.” Using “suck” at a Wings game generally incurs the above-mentioned chastisement. 

It’s one thing when a bunch of college kids who’re 18, 19, 20, 21, and are a little bit inebriated do those chants--and, ironically enough, the NCAA cracked down on the more obscene ones--and it’s another when fans of a professional hockey team spend the vast majority of their time expending negative energy toward the opposition instead of cheering on their own team.

If fans choose to behave as such, that’s their option, but if people suggest that it’s not exactly “classy,” that’s to be expected.

Regarding the game itself, Dom tends to pull the, “Ah, across the crossbar, I shall lean back and stretch” when he’s comfortable.  It’s a good sign.

I really didn’t like the fact that the Wings blew the 5-on-3 and sagged, fatigue or no fatigue, but I thought Dom looked good, Cheli looks like he’s gonna have to pick up his skating to keep up with Kronner, but he did well, I really love the chutzpah that Kopecky’s displaying, Downey actually looked competent in the offensive zone, Hartigan and Sammy instigated some of those shenanigans (as did Hamhuis, who did a nice job of disappearing when things got rough), Lebda looked like a man who knew his job was on the line, and the fact that Babs is pissed off on a regular basis now is a good thing.  I’ll take it, Dom will take it, Datsyuk and Zetterberg were anything but non-factors, and chants or no chants, winning is what counts.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 03/21/08 at 01:51 PM ET

First you want Colorado, then you want Nashville, who’s next?  I hope you guys aren’t just whoring around for another first round upset

Posted by Shane from Saskatoon on 03/21/08 at 01:55 PM ET

Being a star of the game is more than just your offensive game, Datsyuk played well last night in both zones.  But if you don’t agree with Datsyuk being named on the stars of the game list, who do you think should be?

Shane, is that upset like the one we sustained last year? Oh wait, we sent Calgary back to the barn in round 1.

Posted by Yzerman19 from Nashville on 03/21/08 at 02:07 PM ET

The difference between a game at the Joe and a game in Nashville

Never experienced a game at the Joe, but i guess it’s just a difference in styles. Most people that i know of that have come from out of town to Preds games are surprised by how exciting the games are compared to their home arenas (especially those from Toronto - heard that many times).

There are times when i’ll admit the chants get a little annoying, but it is also fun. If i just wanted to sit and watch the game, i can do that from home. The the yelling and chants and cheering are part of the experience.

Could we come up with better chants - yes. Mark, the guy that ‘runs’ section 303 has been roundly criticized for not coming up with anything new in 10 years (and not much truly original even then), but the games are still great, and i’d rather have the chants then just have the occasional random cheer or boo at events on the ice (we have plenty of those too, don’t get me wrong).

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 02:12 PM ET

You know what is interesting - Osgood and Hasek, while producing roughly the same results - are the absolute opposite of each other as far as the type of goals they let in.  Hasek is going to miss a lot more wrist shots and long shots because he has terrible positioning but is going to make a lot more big saves, including ones on rebounds.  Osgood is a much better first shot goaltender, with better positioning, but his recovery and backside pushes are very week, making him much more likely to fall to cross crease passes and rebounds.

Posted by moore00 from the Ohio State University on 03/21/08 at 02:14 PM ET

I will disagree respectfully George that you can’t be negative towards the opposite team, it’s part of sports for teams to be hard on the visiting teams.  However, the Nashville chants themselves are weak as can be.  Chelios is a sissy?  Seriously, that’s it?

Posted by moore00 from the Ohio State University on 03/21/08 at 02:16 PM ET

my favorite moment in the game was the idiot close enough to the mic that I heard what he yelled when the Wings took their first penalty.  the ref’s arm was up, Nashville had the puck and shot it.  Hasek made a save and the rebound went right to a Wings player and the whistle blew.  The moron in the stands yelled “aaaahhhhh, QUICK WHISTLE!”

Dolt.

Nashville is the new Denver.  Question for Preds fans who have been to a game - do they have the basic rules (like offsides, icing, etc) in a spread in the middle of the game program?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/21/08 at 03:03 PM ET

Being negative toward the other team is part of the game, but I’m a bit of a believer in the concept that fans can be a sixth man, and I’d rather have my sixth man rallying my team than egging on the other one.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 03/21/08 at 03:07 PM ET

I really like Barry Trotz.  He knows the game, he knows the players, he is a very good coach, and he is a classy guy. 

Now he is taking the blame (from disgruntled bubba fans) after the previous owner Leipold decimated his team.  That is Bull Pucky.  Now that Leipold is gone, the Preds must rebuild.

Minnesota better watch out, because Leipold is liable to f***-up that team, too.  The last time an owner screwed the Minnesota team, the North Stars wound up in Dallas.

Posted by w2j2 on 03/21/08 at 03:18 PM ET

Question for Preds fans who have been to a game - do they have the basic rules (like offsides, icing, etc) in a spread in the middle of the game program?

Not anymore that i’ve noticed in a while. But they do have “Hockey 101” booths in two places in the arena for first-timers, which i think would be a good idea for any arena, even Toronto (though it is admittedly needed here more. just a fact)

I really like Barry Trotz.  He knows the game, he knows the players, he is a very good coach, and he is a classy guy.

Now he is taking the blame (from disgruntled bubba fans) after the previous owner Leipold decimated his team.  That is Bull Pucky.  Now that Leipold is gone, the Preds must rebuild.

I agree that Trotz is a great guy. So is Chris Mason. But for the good of the team i think it might be time for both of them to move on. Trotz was a great coach at taking very little and maximizing it in the early years of the franchise, but he has shown repeatedly that he doesn’t know how to make adjustments in the playoffs. Mason ‘had it’ for a while last year, and may again some day, but he hasn’t been anything like consistent enough this year.

I agree the team needs to do a decent amount of re-building, but I think part of that rebuilding is getting a coach that can take us to another level and make playoff adjustments needed.

Trotz was (and sometimes is) great and belongs in a Predators hall of fame if/when one is built, but I (and many Preds fans) think it may just be time.

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/21/08 at 03:36 PM ET

That was so strange to watch - it was like each of the three periods was its own separate game.

I wonder if that silly train whistle is as annoying in person as on television.  Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s really cute for a plucky little guy like Tootoo, but they would be better off getting an actual locomotive sound instead of something that sounds like it comes from a bright plastic toy in primary colors with a smiley face on the front.  Not very hockey-like.

And I swear I thought I hear the crowd singing that “ole, ole” ditty in the first period with a 1-0 lead.  I thought only the drunken Montreal fans were into premature celebrations - usually with similarly sad results there, too.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/21/08 at 03:51 PM ET

And I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad idea to have the basic rules summarized very briefly in the program either - better, just in diagrams.  Sometimes if you are at a game with a rookie spectator it’s easier to explain with a diagram in front of you.

Now if they have a diagram of the rink and label the goal line, faceoff circles, blue lines, and red lines - now that would be a bit stupid.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/21/08 at 03:57 PM ET

Baroque,

Last year at a Wings game, 2 Preds fans who fit the “hillbilly” stereotype to a tee sat about 6 rows behind us and had the annoying Tootoo whistle. About 5 minutes into the game, everyone around them and us were begging for him to stick it up his ass. It is annoying, loud and sounds like a 1920s train whistle going off. It’s a smart marketing move for the Preds though.

As for the Preds, they’ve played with a lot of moxie this year after basically being gutted. The coaching staff needs a little bit of credit for that happening. I want their fans to wake up and support them full time now that they’ve been granted an extension on their lease. They’re gonna have a good team, and I think with Trotz still coaching, they can win.

Posted by Jeremy from Bowling Green, OH on 03/21/08 at 04:08 PM ET

It’s the fans with the bloody whistles?

I thought it was the normal arena sound guy - one of the clips along with all the snippets of loud music.

In that case, I’d see which of the guy’s bodily orifices the thing could fit in.

Although I’m not much for collective chants at sports events, either.  A personal preference on my part, but I prefer to pay attention to the action on the field or the rink, discuss it with any fans I might be with, and cheer without being prompted.  Organized collective chants remind me too much of air-headed, teeny-bopper high school cheerleaders - although I didn’t care for the conformist atmosphere when I was in high school, either.

I agree with you, Jeremy.  A lot of cities would kill to have that team (Hamilton, for one) and they deserve to have more support from the community.  I hope new ownership will be able to market the team better, as I gather the marketing wasn’t very well done previously from comments by the Nashville fans.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/21/08 at 04:32 PM ET

When I moved to Tennessee in 1993, hockey wasn’t even a dream.  It wasn’t until 1995 that the first roller hockey leagues started popping up in the area, thanks to the influx of people like my family who came here to work for Saturn.  My dad happened to be one of those people.  When it was announced that Nashville was getting a team, I was excited.  That meant that I would get to see my Wings play again.  I even went to the “Name the Team” Party and voted to name the team the Predators.  We even had season tickets for the first two seasons that the Predators played here.  I went to the Predators’ very first game (a shutout loss to the Panthers), and had every intention of liking the Predators except for when they played my boys, the Wings.  Then, the first game between the two teams actually happened.  The first time during that game that one of the Predators players took a cheap shot at one of the Wing players, I knew that that was it for the chances of being a Predators fan.  Every season, I have come to hate that team more and more, and the “fans” are part of the reason.  All the b.s. that goes on in the stands during a game at the SoGay is ridiculous, and has forced me to stop going, since I cannot enjoy a game there anymore.  So, I am forced to watch the Idiot Twins on FSN South instead, because the FSN Detroit feed is always blacked out on my dish.  I still haven’t figured out which is a worse way to watch the Wings play those a-holes.  Most people say that the atmosphere at the SoGay is great for a hockey game, but I disagree.  The chants that these idiots supposedly “invented” came from Yost Ice Arena and Wolverine games I used to go to when I was a kid, how original.  Fang Fingers are RETARDED, and I call them Fag Fingers.  I think it fits right in at the SoGay.  I could go on all day about what I hate about that entire franchise, but I’ll quit while I’m ahead.

Posted by Chris from Columbia, Tennessee on 03/21/08 at 07:19 PM ET

Organized collective chants remind me too much of air-headed, teeny-bopper high school cheerleaders

Strange you should say that-- I’ve always had at least a slight distaste for mass chants and cheering as well, but not because of a traditional high school upbringing (Community High School product here), but because it reminds me of something far more sinister-- fascism.  And being second-generation Italian and Jewish, fascism is deeply frowned on in my family.  My first experience of mob action was, ironically enough, at an anti-Contra (Nicaragua) rally when I was six-- my father did not like at all my comparisons of the massed chants and raised arms to ‘Sieg Heil’ and the Italian Fascist salute.  But broad conformity and mob rule have always made me uncomfortable, and that includes such behavior in a sporting context.

That being said, it’s a bit bathetic and melodramatic to suggest that a bunch of fans chanting “Chelios is a sissy!” are on the verge of becoming hardcore violent nationalists, and there’s far less risk of this in the North American sporting scene.  The crowds tend to be far too democratic and widely varied in political and sociological views, and much more interested in the on-field/on-ice product, to descend into petty-minded collectivism.  Some European soccer clubs and their supporters are much better examples of this-- SS Lazio’s Irriducibli and AS Livorno’s Brigate Autonome are militantly fascist and communist groups, respectively.

I’d rather have my sixth man rallying my team than egging on the other one

Good take, George.  I like it.  Only problem is as a goalie, you’re discounting your own kind as the sixth man. There actually was an instance where the sixth man (sixteenth in this case) made a difference to the outcome of the game-- when Munster played Biarritz in the European Rugby Cup final, the Biarritz captain told one of his players, Sireli Bobo, to cover the wing in defense.  Because of the noise of the crowd, predominantly Munster supporters, Bobo didn’t hear him, didn’t cover the wing, and a Munster player nipped through the gap and scored a try (similar to a touchdown).  Impressive performance from the extra man.

And Wings fans, we had some choice terms of endearment for Cheli when he was a bile-spewing Blackhawk full of piss and vinegar and hatred for everything red & white.  So if the Preds fans want to keep their terms for him PG-rated, let ‘em.  An old battler like Cheli just laughs them off anyway.

Let the results speak for themselves, I say.

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from the slot, sixth man in on the rush on 03/22/08 at 05:49 AM ET

Melodramatic, Andrew?  You? Never. 

I agree with you on the lack of violence of the North American fans.  Those European soccer fans are just scary - whenever I read about some of the hooligans being on watch lists so they aren’t permitted into a country for a tournament because they stir up so much trouble, well, that is just taking the definition of “fanatic” to a ridiculous extreme.

I saw some footage of a soccer game in Italy, I think, where it had to be called because the fans were throwing lit highway flares on the field.  As the smoke was drifting through the air, fans were shown coughing, and the players and officials were escorted off the field by security, covering their heads with their hands so they wouldn’t get hit, I remember thinking that whatever PR department came up with “flare giveaway night” should have their coffee checked for illicit substances.

Whatever would possess someone to bring flares to a sporting event?  Thundersticks are one of the most annoying things known to mankind, but they can’t burn anyone, at least.

That kind of extreme feeling would make being a fan a lot less fun as far as I’m concerned.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/22/08 at 06:31 AM ET

Melodramatic, Andrew?  You? Never.

I have NO CLUE where you might have got that idea.

I honestly think there is a time and a place for potentially violent confrontations.  But I don’t think sporting events are one of them.  But it’s not generally a case of them taking too seriously-- a lot of these guys on no-fly lists that have their passports taken away and so on go to games solely to cause trouble for fans and the police.

As repellent as these people are, they’ve been around a long time.  I know the game you’re talking about-- it was Inter Milan vs. AC Milan, a vicious local rivalry, but that game was only called off after one of the players was injured after being hit by a flare.  The flares are far more common than is reported.  They’re particularly bad in Rome, where the Derby della Capitale (Lazio & Roma) rivalry is so bloodthirsty it makes the Wings-Avs rivalry of the mid-90s look like a genteel no-blood boxing match.  In the last twenty years, about four or five fans have died in Lazio vs. Roma games after being hit by flares.  Those aren’t the only items smuggled into games-- knuckledusters, knives, and chains are common.  And this bleeds over into the representative sides-- a friend of mine from Modena, Uliano, has stopped going to Italian international soccer games because the atmosphere has become so unpleasant.

That being said, this problem is not unique to Italy, it’s only because that’s where it’s currently the most visible.  Millwall in England, Hajduk Split in Croatia, Real Sociedad in Spain, and St. Pauli in Germany all have their problems with hooligan fans as well.

It was all put into some sort of perspective when I was asked by a friend from Glasgow, familiar with their Old Firm (Rangers and Celtic) rivalry in which violence and rivalry-related injuries and deaths are common, if I would every take the first swing at an Avalanche fan.  I said, “No.”

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from my desk, composing A History of Violence on 03/22/08 at 10:25 AM ET

And being second-generation Italian and Jewish, fascism is deeply frowned on in my family.

Really, my family loves Fascism. It’s Fascionable and all the rage these days.

if I would every take the first swing at an Avalanche fan.  I said, “No.”

Traitor. Personally, I would kick every one of those hermaphrodites in the groin and run away laughing maniacally.

This is an interesting and erudite conversation y’all are having. What I find strange are those hyper local rivalries, including those you mentioned Andrew. Given Europe’s (relatively) long history of international rivalries, heating up to the occasional war, I can understand fans getting overheated for international games. I’m not sure how the minutiae of local rivalries actually fuels physical violence.

Posted by Osrt on 03/22/08 at 11:19 AM ET

I’ve been of the opinion that Nashville will get the #8 seed but seeing the Dive just getting owned right now by Edmonton really makes me happy at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Posted by Dave on 03/22/08 at 02:37 PM ET

Oh, I know it isn’t just Italy, although aren’t some of those rivalries exacerbated by the team owners?  Some of them are politicians or important businessmen, aren’t they?

And that makes me wonder what will happen with a future European hockey league.  If the Russian owners, in particular, start to regard their teams as extensions of their own egos, I worry about what they might do in the service of their own vanity.  How fair would some of the games actually be.

Although if we assume that people everywhere have similar impulses (logical considering that so many Americans have a largely European ancestry), then what substitutes for the maniacal sports rivalries?  Maybe gangs - they supposedly fill a role for young people to belong to something, no matter how warped and twisted.

For all the misty-eyed romanticism about “the way things were when players played only for the love of the game” (because they didn’t need to eat or house their families, since competition was their only nourishment), it’s still a relatively innocent pursuit in a lot of ways.

With the exception of the NFL, perhaps.

And the Edmonton game is starting to look an awful lot like the last Detroit game.  4-1 Oilers, three goals from Colorado, and in 18 seconds the Oilers retake the lead 5-4.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/22/08 at 04:15 PM ET

I think you’re not getting the full implication of the critisism [sic] leveled against Dat-suck...sorry habit…

Oh, yes, Dat-suck. How clever. If by “sucking” you mean 90 points (~3rd in the league) with a +39 (~2nd in the league), I’ll take this kind of sucking from my Wings anytime.

I’m no grammarian, but I believe the word is spelled “criticism.” I know it’s just a small point—about as small as Nashville’s chances of doing anything in the playoffs (if they make it).

Posted by SanJose Wings Fan on 03/22/08 at 11:37 PM ET

although aren’t some of those rivalries exacerbated by the team owners?  Some of them are politicians or important businessmen, aren’t they?

Now you’re talking about the business side of things, of which I don’t have much knowledge.  I have a friend who’s worked with the large European clubs from a business standpoint, but I’d have to talk to her before I presumed to know definitive answers.

That being said, from what I know, despite appearances and the reports in the media, most clubs are private concerns, or else are owned by holding companies that they themselves control, or by the fans.  They’re not structured like professional sports franchises in North America.  The closest league that comes to that model is the English Premiership, and in those cases where the majority shareholder is a single person or small cabal of people, they tend to follow similar lines as the NHL or NFL-- the owners don’t really care about the club beyond the results and the bottom line.  Some, such as Roman Abramovich of Chelsea, approach their team with the same attitude as Mike Illitch-- get the best people and win.  I doubt Abramovich gives much thought to the club’s rivalry with Fulham, beyond how that affects ticket sales-- and he’d milk it or halt it accordingly.  Malcolm Glazer and his family, Floridians and owners of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, own Manchester United.  I don’t think they care very much about whether Manchester United beats Manchester City.  I mean, these guys are ‘successful’ (in the conventional sense) and they didn’t get that way by having hang-ups about rivalries like you or I.  And they generally feed their egos by the length of their yachts and the size of their bank balances, not necessarily by the success of the team they own.

The leagues in other countries are generally less going concerns and more clubs that run and govern themselves.  Almost every French team in the Ligue Premier (the large-market French top division) is family- or fan-owned.  Ajax Amsterdam, one of the largest clubs in the Dutch league (admittely a middle-market league, but still worth millions) is owned 73% by their own holding company AFC Ajax NV, and the other 27% is owned by several million fans.  In the rare case where ownership can be traced to single people with egos, it’s not quite that simple.  The largest soccer club in Germany’s Nordrhine-Westphalen, based in Leverkusen, goes by the name of Bayer Leverkusen-- yes, that Bayer, the pharmaceutical giant and maker of aspirin, who founded and own the club.  While Bayer Leverkusen don’t have any really bitter rivalries, they have a small one with Borussia Dortmund, but I think the paymasters at Bayer are more concerned with their worldwide pharmaceutical sales than the Bundesliga standings.  Finally, I found this interesting tidbit-- one of the largest shareholders in AS Roma, the team with which SS Lazio have that lovely flare-enhanced rivalry, is ABN Amro Holdings...a Dutch banking company, headed by an Englishman named Mark Fisher.  I’m guessing he and the board of ABN Amro have only tangentially heard of the Derby della Capitale, much less care about it.  The only real example I can find where an owner might place rivalry as more important than the bottom line is the aforementioned AC Milan, where a large shareholder and the president is the notorious Italian politician Silvio Berlusconi.  As a Milanese himself, he may very well live or die by whether AC Milan beats Inter Milan.  But he is a canny fellow, and I suspect it doesn’t matter as much to him as it would to the average man on the Milan street.

As far as any future European hockey leagues go, I suppose we’d have to see how that pans out.  Most of the new Russian oligarchs can be pretty unpredictable, so your guess is as good as mine.  Unfortunately, it’s not like any league is the perfect model, not least the NHL.  However, I would think that given the level of bureaucratic oversight of every other pan-European venture, a league like this would be tightly controlled and regulated.  Whether that translates into fair results especially if a particular team owner is vain and corrupt, well…

Maybe gangs - they supposedly fill a role for young people to belong to something, no matter how warped and twisted.

Interesting idea about gangs, though I think most gangs are more like business ventures and less like YMCAs.  I’m not entirely convinced that genetic ancestry drives the need to belong to some sort of mass movement, especially given (as Osrt noted) the widely divergent histories of European countries versus North American ones.  If as you said we were to take the need to belong as a given, though, I suppose you could say that places like this, Usenet, all the forums and blogs that are out there where people ‘know’ each other and belong to a loose community, fill this need as well, albeit in a far less violent form.  One thing to note about the real-life rivalries Osrt, is quite a few of these vicious local ones have been around a long time, and easily predate both World Wars and some international rivalries.  And the local ones are often in addition to international ones, just as you or I might have a burning hatred for the Avs in addition to a dislike for Team Russia (not saying that I do, just an example).  The biggest hooligans are extremely xenophobic and will go for anyone not of their ilk.  Even some supporters of the same team will still hate each other based on ideological differences, in the same manner as paramilitary feuds in places like Northern Ireland or the Breton or Basque regions.  These people use any excuse to fight. 

I’ll take this kind of sucking from my Wings anytime.

Man, that $6.7 million a year contract has really made him lazy this year, hasn’t it?

Traitor.

Notice that I did say the FIRST swing.  After that, all bets are off.

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from my desk, nearly making this into a dissertation on 03/23/08 at 05:26 AM ET

I wasn’t thinking about any need to belong as being ethnically determined - just that belonging to a group is a human trait, as humans are (like most primate species) highly social animals.

I brought up the European ancestry because I thought it might affect what organizations people would tend to gravitate towards based on cultural familiarity.  Most modern European cultures are relatively secular, so people with that kind af background might be more inclined to organize themselves along the lines of a business venture (such as an inner-city gang) with sources of income in drug-dealing, for example, and attention paid to what territory is controlled by the group.

Someone with more knowledge of societies with a more religious focus might be more attracted to an organization the uses religious language and symbolism, either because they really believe it or because it is the way to attract adherents.

And I suspected the same thing about most of the teams in Europe (the priority of the bottom-line in the view of the ownership) - it’s mostly the unpredictability of the potential Russian owners that intrigues me.  That country is going through such changes now that the society is shifting like quicksand under their feet, and with that kind of instability the successful businessmen would have to be adaptable and ruthless, more so than in a more stable environment where they can at least count on the rules being stable from one fiscal year to the next.

****

And on the hockey front - how about those Dallas Stars and their propensity for blowing third-period leads?  What a change from the winning team that was right behind Detroit a few weeks ago.  Not a good time to start playing poorly.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/23/08 at 08:00 AM ET

I’m a fan from Kansas, who has only ever experienced watching a live Wings game in St. Louis (Where, for the most part, the fans are fiercely loyal to their home team, but still have class).  I discovered hockey as my interest for soccer began waning (the diving and relatively slow pace of play as compared to hockey).  Claude Lemieux actually made me a Wings fan, as the first hockey game I ever really got into was game six of the ‘96 conference finals.

Looking back at my first few years of fan-dom and thinking about the things I used to yell at my television is kind of embarrassing.  I used to scream for a penatly anytime any Red Wings player fell down; I used to get really excited whenever a Wings player crossed the opponents’ blue line in a one-on-two rush; I used to yell things like “That was a quick whistle!” on delayed penalties and scream for too many men on the ice penalties whenever I saw that there were more than five skaters actually physically ON the ice.  My heart was in the right place, but I didn’t know enough about the game to keep myself from missing the subleties and saying some pretty stupid things.

This is what the fans in Nashville remind me of, they remind me of me before I really understood the game.  It probably took me three full seasons before I gained the understanding necessary to stop making what I like to call “Rookie fan mistakes.” Of course, the fans in Nashville as a group are going to take a little longer to come along (as we all know group mentality is a very powerful thing).  I also don’t think that it helps that the local Fox Sports announcers aren’t nearly as good (nor as objective) as Ken Daniels and Mickey Redmond. 

The Nashville fans still have a ways to go, but I do give them credit for their exuberance.  While I would like to hear more “Let’s go Predators” chants than “Chelios is a sissy”, I think those will come in time and, hey, if the team isn’t good enough for the games to be considered “rivalry games” then at least their fans can be annoying enough to give us the same satisfaction when the Red Wings win.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 03/23/08 at 10:06 AM ET

I wasn’t thinking about any need to belong as being ethnically determined

Ah.  My sincere apologies for the misunderstanding.  I agree that the drive toward gregariousness IS very much a genetic trait of humankind.

Most modern European cultures are relatively secular

Certainly true of most modern European societies, but Stateside the cultures diverged when there was still a strong religious imperative, and for some reasons that I don’t pretend to know, this has been kept relatively vital in the New World while it has waned in the old world.  Perhaps the same people that would have gathered around Joan of Arc’s burning at the stake, deprived of religious symbolism, have taken on the tropes and iconography of their favorite sports team as a religion-- hence the fanaticism.

But if we’re approaching the question of what has replaced that sort of mob will and mass action in North American society, well...good question.  Religious attendance figures might come in handy here.

it’s mostly the unpredictability of the potential Russian owners that intrigues me

“Intrigues” is one word for it.  “Terrifies” is another.  Putin’s new Russia represents opportunities for a particular kind of person who can curry favor and create their own luck.  Couple that with a trend toward totalitarianism and you have all the makings of it regressing back to the bad old days of Stalin’s USSR.  It’s no wonder that those without the stomach for doing business in such a destructive manner, and the opportunity to get the hell out, do so at the first opportunity.  Them that’s got shall get, them that’s not shall lose.

Damn Stars-- they need to be streaking going into the first round against Anaheim.  They can have their meltdown in the second round.  Nuts.

I’m putting Miracle on the DVD player tonight.  The company that brought you The Mighty Ducks and their real-life thug counterpart does 1980 Lake Placid USA vs. USSR...Wish me luck.

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Disney's lake of saccharine sweetness on 03/23/08 at 03:47 PM ET

No problem - hard to get a real solid understanding on a series of tubes.  Heck, it’s hard enough in person sometimes.

I used “intriguing” because the detachment makes me less nervous about historical events I can’t control.  I read somewhere that one Russian historian thought that Russia had been created as a bad example for all other nations, since if there were several different directions for future events, Russia always seemed to follow the most destructive, most damaging, most unfortunate path.  If the country were an arena, I’d figure it was built over an ancient burial ground!

And I actually liked Miracle.  I thought it did an excellent job of recreating the atmosphere surrounding the event, which is why I don’t really think of the goal scored by Eruzione as an appropriate choice for ESPN’s “best highlight of all time” or whatever they were calling it.

The goal itself, in isolation, wasn’t anything spectacular. What made it amazing was the context - and I think of it more as an element of an historic event than just a sports highlight.

-----

Although if Dallas keeps slumping, they may slide out of the matchup with Anaheim - and Anaheim might match up against Calgary instead.

Pronger vs. Phaneuf?  Hmmmm.....

-----

@J.J. - I hear you.  At one point everyone was a rookie fan, but sometimes it was so long ago that it’s hard to be patient with those who are still learning.

But you have to admit, exuberance or no, that “Chelios is a sissy” is pretty grade-school level.  He has a long and illustrious history in the game - show a little more creativity and even venom in your insults! 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/24/08 at 03:31 PM ET

To put the “Chelios is a sissy” chant into a better context...it started several years ago after Chelios had a few games in a row (I think a home-and-home set actually) with the Preds where he apparently felt particularly wronged by a few non-calls and complained repeatedly to the refs about being roughed up. The chant started and stuck.

We know he’s not a sissy and could beat up 95% of the people in the arena (...ok 97%).

We also have one you Wings fans don’t hear as often I’m sure: “Wilson is a whiner” for Ron Wilson, coach of the Sharks for the same reason. Always complaining to the refs and the media about calls and non-calls. (Something i often wish Trotz would do just a little more where the occasion merits)

I, and most Preds fans, would also say that our David Legwand belongs on this list. He rarely leaves the ice without having a conversation with the refs and arguing some point or another. It’s part of the game. Most of us know that. Doesn’t mean we can’t give guys a hard time about it though.

Posted by Paul Nicholson from Nashville, TN on 03/24/08 at 06:20 PM ET

Paul, don’t trade body blows with Malik. You’ve already lost.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/

and seriously dude, your datsyuk comments are really hilarious. Look through the OTHER end of the binoculars. Things are close-up that way.

Posted by cowboycoffee from San Francisco, CA on 03/25/08 at 02:38 AM ET

No problem - hard to get a real solid understanding on a series of tubes.  Heck, it’s hard enough in person sometimes.

See how easily I misunderstood you?  Maybe you see what I’m saying about me and sarcasm now.  I don’t even get it when I’ve pissed somebody off!  Maybe I’ll go live among the bears.  I’ll speak in grunts and there will be no human subtleties, and all the honey I can eat.  In the winter I’ll get to hibernate until springtime.

Russia always seemed to follow the most destructive, most damaging, most unfortunate path

Interesting, and rather accurate, analysis.  One thing that I can almost see is that, at least as far as 20th-century Russian history goes, it almost seems like when they’ve engaged in self-destructive ways, it’s been interference from an outside power wishing to kick them when they’re down that jolts them back onto the path of survival.  Whether that be the influence of British agents helping to consolidate matters in the chaos of the 1917 revolution, the galvanizing action of Operation Barbarossa after the ill-thought out Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Kennedy administration’s insistence on confrontation in the wake of the Cuban Missile Crisis, or the Pakistani security service’s covert guerilla war after the invasion of Afghanistan, it always seems like they only realize what they’re doing when some other power tries to deliver the coup de grace.  I guess let’s see what happens with Chechnya…

What scares me stiff about the state of the country though is where it’s going-- they are poised to become a major player on the global energy market in the next decade, and with that can come great demands and great power.  A Sino-Russian alliance, which seems to be developing, could very well be the 21st century’s global superpower.  If the administration were a friendly one, I wouldn’t be too concerned.  But they’re not, so I am.

And I actually liked Miracle.

Actually, I will slightly grudgingly admit that...despite myself, I enjoyed it, more than I thought I would.  I’m normally averse to schmaltz and Disney’s own particular brand of syrupy-sweet mushiness, especially when said company is a relative latecomer to hockey, being based as they are in southern California and Florida sunshine country.  But I was loaned the movie by a friend who said she’d enjoyed it, and I make it a point to watch recommended movies even if I think I won’t like them, just so that I can discuss them afterward.  That has led me to watch Amazon Women On the Moon, Con Air, and Turkish Star Wars, but it was also the same way I found The Usual Suspects, The Big Lebowski, and 8 1/2, so I’m not complaining.  Anyway, Miracle.  While I’m too young to remember the game when it was live, I vaguely remember the context and how that was THE story of the Olympics.  I’ve seen the game through since though and considering the facts, the circumstances, and the events of the game, it was just about a miracle.  In the movie I thought the hockey scenes were technically brilliant, and very well-executed.  They nailed the awful clothes and worse hairdos of the period.  And they captured the ‘moment’ quite well-- I understand they used the original recording of Al Michaels saying, “Do you believe in miracles?” which I think was a nice touch, considering it’d be hard to recreate that kind of emotion.  As you say, Eruzione’s goal was a decent play but not a blow-your-socks-off one, but in the right frame of reference, the historical context and that of the ‘moment,’ it was stunning.  I wasn’t too keen on Kurt Russell in the role of Herb Brooks, but it’s hard not to think of him as a tough guy-- sometimes I was half expecting him to whip out a submachine gun and threaten his team with ‘Again’ instead of the whistle.  That being said, he did all right with a good script-- while we’ll never know what was said at the practices, in the locker room, between periods and so on, there were some inspired moments in the dialogue.  Eruzione’s “Michael Eruzione!  Winthrop, Massachusetts!” “Who do you play for?” “I play for the United States of America!” moment was quite good.  And I like that they accentuated Craig’s huge game, with all the key saves and stoning the explosive Soviet attack time and time again.  He, more than any other player on the ice, was responsible for the victory.  I didn’t like the portrayal of the Soviets as taking cheap shots and playing like goons.  While it’s been a while since I last saw the game, they played about as clean as everybody else, Team USA included, and the style at the time let you get away with a lot more.  But like I said, Disney...they need their villains.

“Wilson is a whiner” for Ron Wilson

I’m sure that he must LOVE that.  Careful with those chants, though-- Wilson is a terrible coach and a bit of a head case, so you never know when you’ll push him over the edge and he’ll go on a rampage, burning down all the honky-tonks and barbecue joints.

And I’ve had overcooked, burnt smoked brisket.  It’s just no good at all. 

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from my private screening room, watching "Ishtar" on 03/25/08 at 05:11 AM ET

@ Andrew:

If you haven’t read it yet, track down a copy of “The Boys of Winter.” It’s out in paperback now, so it shouldn’t be that hard to locate for not much money.  It covers the same ground as “Miracle” but also talks about what happened to some of the US players in the years since 1980, and the author also talked to some of the Russians on the team - so they weren’t portrayed as villians or as Communist hockey-playing robots.  Unlike a lot of sports books, it is actually written instead of reading like it is cobbled together from a disjointed collection of newspaper columns on the same subject.  I think you’d like it.

(And you misunderstood me because I left myself open for that.  As I was typing I realized that I could be interpreted that way, but figured what the heck, I could always clarify later.)

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 03/25/08 at 12:36 PM ET

Hey, thanks Baroque!  I’m always on the lookout for a good read (bit of a voracious consumer of the written word), and the title is a deft turn of phrase, so that just sweetens it.  I would like to hear a bit more from those who were actually there-- you can get reams of quotes from Herb Brooks, but it’s a sharp dropoff after that.  And given that some of the Soviet players were real characters themselves-- Fetisov was one of the players instrumental in breaking down hockey’s Iron Curtain, and Makarov always came off as clever and quick-witted to me-- and some were later on the Wings’ Cup-winning squads, I’d love to hear what they had to say after the great unexpected event.  Thanks!

(And get used to it-- being a bit of a bonehead and guileless, it won’t be the last time I’ll misunderstand you.  Just virtually smack me upside the head and I’ll get it )

Downey in the lineup tonight.  Let’s see if those three Blooze pick up where they left off, and how Downey’s calculating enforcement pays off.

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from somewhere...lost in stacks and stacks of books on 03/25/08 at 05:52 PM ET