I have all the confidence in the world that Kenny will re-sign Z and Mule.  Z will sign around what Dats did and mule’s will be dependent on his production in order to prove the last month and playoffs were not a fluke(i hope it wasn’t).  After that, with hossa, it’s gonna take another large increase in the cap to fit him in, imo.  Sammy, even with his great scf series, i can see being let go, and huds being a victim of an offer-sheet.

Posted by SignZandMuleNow on 09/04/08 at 10:08 PM ET

Of course Z gets signed, and keeping Hossa around would be gravy.  But am I the only one still reserving judgment about Franzen? He needs to show that the end of last season wasn’t an aberration.

Posted by Gabriel from San Diego, CA on 09/04/08 at 10:28 PM ET

Franzen’s last goal of the season convinced me he was the real deal.

Posted by moore00 on 09/04/08 at 10:32 PM ET

“This is probably the deepest team we’ve ever had, but we know a year from now we’re going to start losing players.”

Well, duh?  Old age is simply gonna catch up with some of the players.  Damn walker’s don’t work well on ice.

Ride the wave, Kenny, ride the wave.  It’s still summer out here and my boat engine will need a new lower end next summer.  Next summer...right now....we ski.

The Summer of Stanley continues.....

Posted by Rumbear from Rum D'eggo on 09/04/08 at 10:56 PM ET

I said this in my blog, and Holland’s going to have to do what he did to keep Stuart, Cleary, Filppula, and, to some extent, Holmstrom, Datsyuk, and Osgood--he’s got to get them to buy in to the concept that if you take a little less than your market value, that opens up cap room to keep your teammates in the fold, too.

The other thing is that, with a nice crop of young forwards and defencemen in Grand Rapids, somebody’s gonna end up losing his job when these kids are ready.  There will be departures, and that’s just the way the NHL works--sometimes earning your spot on the roster means taking somebody else’s job.

There’s no doubt that Z wants to be a career-long Wing, just as Pavel does.  He’ll be signed. 

I think that Franzen will be a difficult negotiation because nobody really knows whether he pulled a John Druce or not, and it’s probably more realistic to project him as a 30-35 goal-scorer, maybe 40, who will put up about 60 points as he tends to put up more goals than he does assists.  His agent will try to get Franzen 80-point-scorer money, and Holland will try to keep Franzen’s salary in the $3-4 million range. 

Hudler’s salary will be determined by his performance this season.  If he can put up a Cleary-esque 20-20-40 and improve his intensity and attention to detail, he stays.  If not, he’s a role player, and Samuelsson’s in the same boat.

Hossa’s reputation will be made completely upon whether he’s going to buy in or not.  We all know what he can get on the open market, and if he wants that, he’s not gonna be a Red Wing for a long time, but if he’s willing to buy into Holland’s plan, then he can settle in and buy a house.

Holland has ten months to work this stuff out.  In the meantime, I like what Nick had to say about now.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/04/08 at 11:02 PM ET

Buh-bye:
Lilja
Lebda
Sammy
Malts
Cheli
Ozzie (possibly)
Hudler (possibly)

Posted by mudshark from Divetown, Colorado on 09/04/08 at 11:22 PM ET

There’s just no way to keep Zetterberg, (new) Franzen, and Hossa.  That’d be six Wings with contracts over $5m--maybe even six Wings at $6m or more, if Franzen hits 40 goals, which he probably will.

So let’s do some math.  Lidstrom + Datsyuk + Rafalski = 7.45 + 6.7 + 6 = 20.15 Now let’s assume the other three all sign at $6m (which they won’t), and add 18 + 20.15 = 38.15.  Then let’s add in some other important contracts, like Kronvall, Stuart, Filppula, and Cleary: 3 + 3.75 + 3 + 2.8 + 38.15 = 50.7 So we’ve got 10 players signed at $50.7m.  Filling out the rest of the roster with league-minimum contracts and adding a couple goalies (because you can’t get NHL-calibre goaltending at the league minimum) would put the team up against or over the current cap.  The only way it could be possible to keep all three is by trading three or four of Kronvall, Stuart, Filppula, Cleary, and Holmstrom.  It’s not even worth pretending that it’s possible to keep this team together.

And Franzen’s the real deal.  A fluke season would be a 15-goal scorer like old Franzen getting a shot on the power play and on a scoring line and getting 30 goals in a full season in a contract year.  Franzen did something similar, except he got those 30-something goals in 30-something games.  He’s well past ‘fluke’ and into ‘demonic possession’ or ‘voodoo magic’ territory.  And voodoo don’t go away overnight.

And not only is he guaranteed a spot on the power play this year, he’s guaranteed that whichever power play he’s on (first or second) will finally have at least one talented player on it.  (If it were up to me, I’d try Rafalski out on the second unit with Franzen, Hossa, Hudler and see how it goes.)

Posted by Ryan from Toronto on 09/05/08 at 03:41 AM ET

I will bet you $100 franzen doesnt hit 40 goals

Posted by callmedrw on 09/05/08 at 06:33 AM ET

Its entirely feasible, it really just depends on where the cap lands.  As it is right now, the wings have 14 players under contract for next season totaling 41.7 mil.  Thats 17 @ 44 mil if you include ericsson, howard and helm.  Thats 7 forwards, 8 defensemen (not including quincey), and 2 goalies.  Id also add that theres a distinct possibility that lilja will be gone by then (if not before) So now you have 7 defensemen and 42.8mil total.  Add 7 for Z and 7 for hossa. 56.8 mil.  Add 3 for franzen(if holland does it SOON) 59.8 mil.  Now you have 2 goalies, 10 forwards 7 defensemen.  Figure about 1.2 mil for quincey and downey.  Thats 61 mil.  maybe 800 K ish for Kopecky, and another 850K for abdelkader.  Thats about 62.5 mil.  These figures are loose, but thats 13 fowards, 8 defensemen and 2 goalies.  Most estimates ive read Have the cap around 62 mil next year.

Theres a few other ways to go about this too.  First maybe the wings could move cleary and replace him with helm or abdelkader.  I know its not popular, but if it comes down to cleary or hossa, thats a pretty easy decision.  This plan also includes letting hudler and sammy go.  Another possibility, is holland could get crafty, and tack a year onto the end of Z’ or hossas contract (say they sign 6-7 year deals that expire when they are 35.  If those deals paid 7 mil for 7 years, and 2 mil in the 8th year, it drops the cap hit from 7 mil to 6.35 mil.  That might be the difference in keeping hudler.  If holland could convince both of them to tack on 2 years At something like 2 mil and 1 mil (they would be 35 or 36 years old by this time also free to retire with no cap hit penalty(since they singed before 35), itd drop to 5.77 mil.

Bottom line is there are ways to make this all work.  Maybe you move a player or 2, maybe you get crafty with the cba, but in the end, alot of it comes down to where the cap lands.

Posted by aTTicA from NY on 09/05/08 at 06:34 AM ET

This could be basically filed away under: Duh.

We’re better than that here.  Put me in the camp with Hudler of “Show Me.” We saw a lot of mental retardation out of him in the Finals and a lot of him learning on the fly where we’ve been patiently waiting for him to emerge and become the scorer we figured he would be.  The touch is there, the speed and skill is there… can he put it all together. 

I know Tick Tock has the patience of a saint with players and perhaps he’ll use his mental trickery to get someone to sign him to an obnoxious RFA deal in the offseason and collect draft picks from someone very desperate.

The defensive corps I don’t fret about right now because I’m guessing the cutdowns will begin shortly and we’ll see moves we’ll learn to appreciate.

I agree with all on Franzen and I agree that he’s going to make life rough on Holland come negotation time next year.  It’s moments like these as to why we keep the faith though.  That said, I’ll feel a lot more at ease when certain defensive pieces find their way to other teams to give them gray hairs.

Posted by HockeyJoe from NY on 09/05/08 at 06:34 AM ET

why is is not feasible to sign Hossa to a 10yr contract, front loaded where he averages $6.5mm-7mm per year?  It could be doable

Posted by bababooey on 09/05/08 at 07:21 AM ET

To the person who suggested moving Cleary, you are forgetting that he has a no-trade clause. He’s a Wing until at least after the 2012 season. They should have made Chelios an assistant coach instead of bringing him back, especially when he didn’t play a game in the Final. And who the hell is William Tell? The nicknames are cute, but they get kind of annoying after a while.

Posted by GL from NB on 09/05/08 at 07:44 AM ET

William Tell is the guy with the laser-like shot, who can miss the net by 6 feet when shooting from the slot, and who took out Cleary’s mandible (& season) with a slapper last season...Samuelsson.

Posted by w2j2 on 09/05/08 at 08:01 AM ET

There is too much talent (great problemt o have)—players have to go, one way or another.

Kopecky, Maltby, Hudler, and Samuelsson are all obviously on the chopping block after this season (if one of them isn’t traded this season to clear a little space and keep the roster from overflowing).

Even if the cap goes up, they only probably have room for two of Z/Mule/Hossa. Z is a lock. So it comes down to the other two. If Mule isn’t out of his mind asking for more than $4 million (unless he’s Rocket Richard this season), he stays.

The tough questions come in the form of guys like Kris Draper, Dan Cleary, and Tomas Holmstrom. Maybe even Filppula. If the right trade comes along for one of those players (Draper and Homer, IMO are untradeable, at least if you want fair value back), you have to think long and hard about it.

A mid to high first-rounder for Flip? Frees up space to keep Hossa and gives you ammo to restock the system all the while. Some combination of second- and third-round picks for Cleary? You’d think about that one, too.

Franzen steps in and is dominant in front of the net, with a little touch to boot? Some (Eastern Conf.) team is crazy enough to unload a first-rounder at the deadline for Homer? Think about it.

And there are guys to step in. For the time he got, Helm was a revelation in the playoffs with his speed and work ethic. Kopecky was finally having an impact on games the few weeks leading up to his injury. And we know how Iwo feels about Abbadabbadoo…

Lots of tough decisions, but I think the silver lining is that no matter what happens, the cupboard is stocked with talent—even if this year is a one year window, and then the team needs two or three seasons to get back to the Cup level (they won’t fall out of the middle of the conference), they will be back with all these players they have, no doubt about it.

Heck, the cap could just go up.

Posted by Nathan on 09/05/08 at 08:02 AM ET

Signing them all would ne nice but me thinks rather difficult.
The hometown discount helps us a ton, but not sure if it helps millions. That will depend on the players and the damn agents. The Mules agent made the last contract a PITA & he’s got an awful lot more ammo now.
Z is a Wing for life, that one we can put in the bank.
Hudler can go, he’s been around the system long enough if he doesn’t prove he’s capable of an increased role this, year he never will.
IF Hossa is the fit we’re hoping for, we’ll make an offer but I doubt we’d let heart n soul guys like Cleary go for it (bad example as GL said his contract has a NTC). Malts is on the last leg of his career, we need the grit and work ethic of guys like Danny boy.
Sammy (William Tell) is gone, thanks. Lilly too.
We’ll most likely find a way to make most of this work. In Kenny & The Brain Trust the 19 of us trust.

Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 09/05/08 at 08:03 AM ET

I think if it came down to Franzen vs Hossa, (depending on how they play this year), Babcock might prefer Franzen.  That power forward, wide-body, puck tipping, goalie-screening net-front presence is VERY important, and Homer may be wearing out / slowing down.  (How much pounding can a body take?)

Hopefully Kenny does not ever face this either/or situation.  Again, a lot depends on how they play this year.

Posted by w2j2 on 09/05/08 at 08:10 AM ET

I bet Holland already has a pocket-full of offers for Lilja, Lebda, Quincy & Meech.

He probably has offers for Sammy & Hudler.

We are definitely going to see defensemen moved by the end of camp, and we will probably see forwards moved in March at the trade deadline.

Posted by w2j2 on 09/05/08 at 08:26 AM ET

Detroit’s going to have to get a goalie in a year or two tops as well, most possibly… and I highly doubt the next Cup-quality starter is going to be had for under 2 mil a year multi-year.

This thing with Hossa is a one-shot deal.  He could have signed for a couple years at 7.45 if he wanted to, God knows Holland would have signed him to that deal, but he chose to just sign the one-year contract.

Even with Hossa leaving and the cap space that creates I still think the Wings are 50-50 at best to keep Franzen.  They’ve put a number of deals in front of him over the past couple years and Johan’s (wisely, at least from his perspective) not signed them.  Even if Franzen ‘only’ scores 30-35 goals next year, at his size with his defense that makes him a 5-6 mil a year guy on the open market.  If Detroit got him at 4 it’d be a titanic bargain.  Ryan Malone just got 4.5 long term and Franzen > Malone.

Then again, Detroit just won a Cup.  I’m not going to get to alarmed about how things go in Detroit until 2012 or so, at least unless the bottom falls out.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/05/08 at 08:36 AM ET

William Tell = Samuelsson. The name is meant to poke fun at his ability (or lack thereof) to shoot the puck on net.

Posted by YzermanZetterberg on 09/05/08 at 08:47 AM ET

...Add 3 for franzen(if holland does it SOON)

That’s the biggest pipe dream I’ve seen posted here this year.

We saw a lot of mental retardation out of him (Hudler) in the Finals…

I don’t know what Finals you were watching, HockeyJoe, but Happy’s play was the exact opposite of “mental retardation” in the Finals. He stepped up both his offensive and defensive game...and that’s the reason Babs is starting him on the 2nd line this year.

...we’ve been patiently waiting for him to emerge and become the scorer we figured he would be.

It’s a little hard to become a “scorer” on the 4th line. He’s playing with Hank and Mule this year (at least in the beginning) and I expect to see him put up significant offensive numbers (both goals and assists).

A mid to high first-rounder for Flip? Frees up space to keep Hossa and gives you ammo to restock the system all the while.

Fil for a pick? What the hell are people smoking this morning? Please pass some over here after your next hit.

Even if Franzen ‘only’ scores 30-35 goals next year, at his size with his defense that makes him a 5-6 mil a year guy on the open market.  If Detroit got him at 4 it’d be a titanic bargain.

Now there’s a dose of reality. Please send some of your common sense to the guy from upstate NY, HD.

As for Hossa, he’s an “insurance policy” in case Mule gets greedy. If Kenny is smart (well, duh), I think he’ll give Mule a deadline for signing a multi-year deal in the $4-4.5M range (assuming he has a season that matches his spring). If he balks, Kenny offers Hossa a multi-year deal at $7.45M (or less). Whoever takes the money first stays.

If both are willing to accept Kenny’s offer, and no significant trades are made to clear up cap space, I’m with w2j2...Kenny keeps Mule for all of the reasons w2 listed.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 09/05/08 at 11:00 AM ET

A mid to high first-rounder for Flip? Frees up space to keep Hossa and gives you ammo to restock the system all the while.

If they wanted to trade him for a pick, they would have waited until someone threw an offer sheet at him and let him walk.  There were rumours about Vancouver floating around (I remember a “Get your grubby mitts off Wally!” and a “Back off, Shamu!” at the time).  They absolutely love the kid - and defensively he has been outstanding, in particular.  That isn’t all that common with players that young.

And Hudler scored like crazy for someone who was getting that little ice time.  He works hard, doesn’t make a lot of mistakes - he was anything but “retarded” last year.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 09/05/08 at 11:19 AM ET

speaking of smoking, i smoked some “pineapple express” the other day. unbelievable stuff.

Posted by alex from san francisco on 09/05/08 at 11:31 AM ET

I’m guessing Hudler’s supposed “retardation” refers to the two penalties he took late in SCF Games 5 and 6 (if I remember the timing correctly).

However, if I also remember correctly, one was a very weak call (the other was high sticking, so it pretty much had to be called)—especially in light of some ridiculous non-calls on the Penguins as both games wore down.

Whatever, the kid has paid his dues and deserves a shot at some solid ES ice time.

Posted by YzermanZetterberg on 09/05/08 at 12:27 PM ET

OTC, Hudler started out last year on the second line too.  IMO the reason this happens is that he’s either going to be a second line forward in Detroit, or he’ll be gone.  Once his RFA protections lapse some team with less of a focus on the things Hudler doesn’t do well is going to offer him more than Detroit will/should as a 4th line guy playing on the second PP unit.  So, Hudler needs to sink or swim in the top 6.  Last year he sunk like a rock with a rock tied to it’s ankles.  Hopefully this year he’ll be better.

Also, I think Hossa quickly and firmly walks away from a multi-year long term deal at 7.45.  First, it’s far from sure Holland could sign him to that and be able to retain Zetterberg without essentially destroying the roster.  Second, it’d be easily 1-2 mil less a year than what he could get on the open market.

Franzen may be able to be had for 4-4.5, but the Wings are going to have to go out there in Cleary/Filppula land with the term, like 4 or 5 years minimum.  That worries me a little bit.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/05/08 at 12:33 PM ET

My bad on a few things, I was at work and didn’t really have the time to blow through the research. So yes, Cleary is here no matter what with that NTC. And certainly I wouldn’t want to get rid of him, I was just making a point that if the right offer comes along and it allows you to keep a guy like Hossa, you will think about it long and hard.

Only reason I said you consider a first-rounder for Flip is because:
- It can help you keep Hossa
- Depends on how hight that pick is
- Wings will likely be dealing from a weak position… teams know players (some of which are star or semi-star players) will have to leave this roster at some point
- We haven’t seen Flip produce quite like we’ve expected yet, so let’s wait and see. If he gets similar ice time this year we need to see him finally get over that 20 goal mark and come in with something around 50 points

I don’t want Flip to go. I would rather keep him then sacrifice him to keep Hossa, considering his affordable contract. I’m just saying that these are the types of difficult decisions Holland will face, along with difficult decisions based on loyalty to veteran players that within a year or two’s time will be replaceable by talent in the system (Drapes, Maltby, Homer).

Posted by Nathan on 09/05/08 at 01:52 PM ET

...(Hudler)’s either going to be a second line forward in Detroit, or he’ll be gone.

Agreed, HD. And, yes, he did struggle in that role at the beginning of the season last year. But something seemed to “click” for him last spring. He played “tougher” and he was waaaaay more responsible defensively, especially in the playoffs. Can he continue that against opposing 2nd-line players? We’ll see. But I think the time he put in this summer with Cheli’s group out in CA will help a lot. Fingers crossed!

Also, I think Hossa quickly and firmly walks away from a multi-year long term deal at 7.45.  First, it’s far from sure Holland could sign him to that and be able to retain Zetterberg without essentially destroying the roster.

On those two points, I have to disagree. Kenny seems to have a way of convincing guys that taking a little less money to play on a championship-caliber team every year is in their best interests. But I guess part of the equation is which team offers Hossa a sweeter deal. Would he rather go to Edmonton for $8.5M or stay in Detroit for $7.5M?

As for his salary hurting the roster financially, I was suggesting that the only way he stays is if Mule decides to leave. I don’t see any scenario where the Wings will have the Cap space to keep both. But if Mule leaves (along with Sammy and Lilja...if they’re still here next spring), I don’t think there will be a major problem adding Hossa at $7.45M. Helm and Abdelkader will fill two of the spots next year for a total cost of $1.45M, so any Cap increase over $4M should leave room for Hossa (but, again, only if Mule leaves).

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 09/05/08 at 03:14 PM ET

I also agree with the guy who’s older than Chelios, that Hudler is quite underestimated around here.

I though he played very good last year, ho got some good stats (42 points in the regular season, 14 in the playoffs) playing mainly on a fourth line. His line with Helm and McCarty/Maltby in the playoffs was very good.

It’s safe to assume that the only thing he can do right now is improve. Same thing with Filppula. The Wings should keep those two.

Posted by Luc on 09/05/08 at 05:56 PM ET

If we can get Franzen for $4mil/year on a 4 or 5 year term, I’m ok with that, even if it means losing a shot at keeping Hossa.

Even if he doesn’t maintain the pace from last spring, he’s always been good at protecting the puck and been smart defensively. And now he’s learning to barrel through defenders and shoot, plus be one hell of a net front presence. Gimme around 45 points and I’m happy.

Posted by Nate A from metro Detroit on 09/05/08 at 06:24 PM ET

I’m pretty sure there isn’t going to be any moving for cleary, doesn’t he have a NTC for 3 years?

Posted by jojo from Kalamazoo on 09/05/08 at 08:38 PM ET

On those two points, I have to disagree. Kenny seems to have a way of convincing guys that taking a little less money to play on a championship-caliber team every year is in their best interests.

I realize that that particular phrase has gained a lot of traction, especially lately, in part because Hossa’s deal was so spectacularly unexpected, and also because Holland’s come right out and said it a couple times.

But, really… how true is it?  Who exactly has Holland gotten to take sooooo much less money to play in Detroit, when you really break down the situation of the player at the time of the signing in question?

Hossa?  His deal isn’t long term, so he’s giving up 1-2 mil in year one (this year), but if that doesn’t work he’s going to go out for market value in years 2-whenever, so 1-2 mil spread out over the lifetime of his next deal isn’t really a big sacrifice when you look at the bigger picture.

Zetterberg?  His deal was signed under a wayyyy smaller cap number, and was an RFA extention.

Datsyuk?  When Datsyuk signed that deal he was coming off his first extraordinary year, but there were still TONS of questions surrounding his playoff performances and whether he was playing for a contract or whether he was truly that good.  And the cap number was also like 10 million dollars less.

Kronwall?  He’s a 3 mil a year guy now, obviously.  From year 1 of his contract though… maybe not.

Filppula?  Again, this is like the Zetterberg deal.  Detroit had a ton of leverage in that they had his status protected for a couple more seasons.

Cleary?  I actually think they overpaid a bit for Dan, in years and term both.  Detroit’s coach, style and talent level MADE Dan Cleary’s NHL career.  He’s a third line energy forward making 1-1.5 mil on almost every other NHL team.

Stuart?  I think he’s a 4 to 4.5 tops guy on the open market.  I can’t comprehend anyone making him a long-term offer of 5… he’s not good enough offensively.  Regehr is a good comparable and he makes 4.025, IIRC.

Rafalski?  6 mil a year and a NMC?

IMO Holland’s true genius is in the accurate (or at least correct by random chance if anyone still thinks he’s a dolt) awarding of long-term deals to guys who have continued to develop their games and become legitimate stars in Datsyuk and Kronwall, or who have at least lived up to their salaries, like Rafalski.

The less adroit GMs make multi-year offers to guys they have to waive or trade in order to get out from under the deals.

In other words, I think Holland doesn’t talk guys into taking less, he and the rest of the organization simply have an accurate grasp on what the players in question will end up being.  The ‘taking less for the team’ thing is IMO a nice little PR move to make sure guys like Kronwall or Zetterberg don’t feel like they’ve been screwed.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/05/08 at 08:42 PM ET

Who exactly has Holland gotten to take sooooo much less money to play in Detroit…

No one said Ken gets guys to take “sooooo much less to play in Detroit”. I said, and many others have said, that he gets guys to take “a little less” to play here.

Who? You can begin with Cheli, Ozzie and Drapes. There’s also no question Pavel signed for at least a million less than he could have gotten elsewhere. Lidstrom? At least two million less. And most of the guys you mentioned, HD, signed for more term than they might have liked (which makes their deals “a little” better bargains over the long haul).

Filppula?  Again, this is like the Zetterberg deal.  Detroit had a ton of leverage in that they had his status protected for a couple more seasons.

That might have been true in the past, but RFAs like Filppula have much greater leverage today. I’d guess he would have gotten close to $3M this year if he’d gone to arbitration. And then he would have been eligible to walk next year.

Five years from now, people are going to be saying Fil’s contract was a masterful bit of negotiating on Kenny’s part and that Fil agreed to take “a little less” (in years four and five) in order to remain a Red Wing.

In the last few years, I think the only player the Wings have signed at pretty much “fair market value” is Rafalski. And the only real mistake Kenny has made was the Matthias-for-Bertuzzi trade.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 09/05/08 at 10:53 PM ET

Raffy took a paycut too, I believe. He makes less than his “market value” certainly, inflated as that may be.

I agree about Fil, but my man crush on him has already been proven.

We shouldn’t be so worried about our team changing, because there are so many good players coming up. Btw, keep Hudler and Franzen; send Hossa on his way if he doesn’t buy into the program.

Welcome back to hockey talk bitches…

Posted by Osrt on 09/05/08 at 11:18 PM ET

It is possible that there will be another large increase in the cap after next year.  Hockey is getting some unexpected coverage of sorts in an unlikely arena right now, the U.S. dollar is weak, the Habs, Blackhawks, and Bruins are in various stages of returning to respectability, the Red Wings are the class of the league, the Maple Leafs are the league’s personal printing press, and the Rangers are, well, I don’t pay attention to the Rangers. 

Plus, the way the league determines the cap is stupid: it uses the average instead of the median and with an outlier on a scale of the Leafs (was it this site that was having this discussion recently?) the cap is bound to grow.

Enough to pay every upcoming FA his market value?  Probably not, but is there anyone on the Wings making his market value?

In any case, I’m not worried.  It’s not something I can control.  In Kenny we trust.

Posted by monkey from The AQ on 09/06/08 at 07:40 AM ET

p.s. To complete one of my thoughts from above:  not all the teams in the league are doing well, but a healthy Original Six is good for business.

Posted by monkey from The AQ on 09/06/08 at 08:08 AM ET

I guess my apparently overestimated expectations of what Hudler could be doing on the whole seemed to go over like a fart in church here.  Let me break out the Lysol then.

Perhaps I’ve got to change my view on what I think Hudler should be doing for the team as opposed to what he’s actually doing.  I know I’m not the only guy that saw him put up nearly 100 points for GR and thought, “Holy crap, we’ve got another big scorer ready to go,” and then gets a bit let down to see him not be as prolific.

It’s a fair argument to say that he’s been on the fourth line and those guys don’t get the minutes or the opportunities to light it up.  Very accurate.  It’s also fair to say that Babcock that last season (playoffs excluded) was doing a bit of tinkering with him and also being a bit… leery of how he was using him. 

Is he poised to break out now or is he going to be another guy that’s going to have to switch the style that he was used to playing to better fit for the team (more defensive minded).  I think we did see that in the playoffs where he got better at the opposite end of the ice with some well-pointed at gaffes where you shake your head and wonder “what’s he doing?”

Where am I going here?  Not very far, but I figured I should clear up what I’m saying and not get ousted like a troll here.  If he starts and sticks on the second line - I think we see the breakout season.  He’d have to become a defensive lockdown guy to not pile up points on a second line with the any number of guys that he can get paired up with there.  He’s shown that he can be a spark on the power play and he can score there and he’s also shown from the playoffs that he doesn’t mind getting in guy’s faces when he gets shoved around.

The earmarks are all there for a breakout this season.  I know Franzen has been rightly getting the attention - but the Oompa Loompa is going to kick Willy Wonka in the junk this season.

Happy now, kids?

Posted by HockeyJoe from NY on 09/06/08 at 12:19 PM ET

No one said Ken gets guys to take “sooooo much less to play in Detroit”. I said, and many others have said, that he gets guys to take “a little less” to play here.

Who? You can begin with Cheli, Ozzie and Drapes. There’s also no question Pavel signed for at least a million less than he could have gotten elsewhere. Lidstrom? At least two million less. And most of the guys you mentioned, HD, signed for more term than they might have liked (which makes their deals “a little” better bargains over the long haul).

I suppose I just feel like the whole ‘taking less to play in Detroit’ thing has gotten way way way way more mileage than it actually deserves based on the relative rarity of it happening, and even when it does happen the amount ‘saved’ is usually no more than 4 or 5%.

In a lot of cases guys who have played most of their careers with other teams take similar discounts for the simple sake of convienence, rather than some masterful Jedi mind-tricking by a GM.

That aside, I don’t think Cheli or Ozzie necessarily took less than the market was offering to play in Detroit.  I think in both cases the market was pretty much non-existent for both of them outside of Detroit.  Cheli was/is a 5th-7th dman and Osgood was an NHL backup.  In Ozzie’s case he signed his three-year extention while splitting starts and before going on his second Cup run.

Again, Holland’s skill is in the timing of the signings, not so much in their deviation from a percieved market threshold.

That might have been true in the past, but RFAs like Filppula have much greater leverage today. I’d guess he would have gotten close to $3M this year if he’d gone to arbitration. And then he would have been eligible to walk next year.

While I agree that RFA’s have more leverage now than in years past, the majority of that leverage exists because of the possibility of Offer Sheets.  When Filppula took the Wings to arbitration he removed himself from that pool of talent, decreasing his leverage to effectively szero.  Next, there’s no way Fil gets 3 mil in arbitration.  Less than 20 goals, less than 40 points, and arbitrators can’t look at future expectations of performance when assigning value.  Also, I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the arbitration process has no impact whatsoever on the players RFA status.  Meaning, the only way Filppula becomes a UFA as a result of arbitration is if the Wings elect to walk away from the award.  In every other event the Wings could simply secure his rights by the yearly qualification offer (which is + some percentage of the previous years’ salary IIRC) or by accepting the arbitration award.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/06/08 at 12:21 PM ET

I just feel like the whole ‘taking less to play in Detroit’ thing has gotten way way way way more mileage than it actually deserves based on the relative rarity of it happening, and even when it does happen the amount ‘saved’ is usually no more than 4 or 5%.

In Pavels case, it’s more like 15% (1M divided by 6.5M). And both Cheli and Ozzie could have gotten about twice their salary to play somewhere else. There are any number of teams that would have paid Cheli $1.6M and Ozzie $2.8M. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.

I’m not sure why you seem so determined to undervalue Wings palyers, but I’ll give you credit for being persistent. Persistent...but wrong.

I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the arbitration process has no impact whatsoever on the players RFA status.  Meaning, the only way Filppula becomes a UFA as a result of arbitration is if the Wings elect to walk away from the award.

You are right about that. But if the Wings and Fil had gone to arbitration, they’d be right back there again next year. That’s, without a doubt, the surest way to lose a player. So Holland coming up with a way to sign Fil for what will turn out to be a great bargain in the long run (and one that will far exceed your 5% claim) was, indeed, a masterful move.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 09/06/08 at 10:41 PM ET