Sounds good to me, too. I hope Zetterberg and Franzen do it.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/24/08 at 06:19 PM ET

So sorry to hi-jack this post, but this is too funny to pass up, and hey, we’re in the dog days of a hockey-less summer.  I was just skimming the KK main page, clicked on a Dater link, ended up going through some of his older posts, and came across this beauty, dated back on June 20, 2008:

“We can’t believe he was still available” and other loads of bull you’ll hear from the NHL draft

What?  The Avs made some mistakes over the years and some of their picks ended up being busts?  Now I don’t claim to be a A2Y regular or anything, but surely I know enough that this flies in direct contradiction to a certain someone’s claims of a sterling Dive draft history, considerably better than the Wings, of course.  (Still waiting on that Excel file Chief, or was it Powerpoint?  Word?  I don’t remember.)  But wait, Dater provides some examples of guys that the Avs passed up, including lo and behold, some current Wings!  Zetterberg, Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler?  Sure.  But check out the other current Wing he also includes…ladies and gentlemen, the #54 pick of the 2000 draft!

Posted by yetanotherwingtransplant from norcal on 07/24/08 at 06:38 PM ET

Kenny is a smart smart man (I honestly never expected to say that before the lockout), but really, that order of priority is a no-brainer.

I just hope Franzen doesn’t prove his nickname true in the negotiations. I really want to see him stick around and continue the development into the monster he became this spring. But he needs to realize that he’s not proven anything yet to earn the big big bucks. From all his interviews I’ve seen and heard, he seems pretty humble, but the kinda cash he could make causes some people do funny things.

Z I’m not worried about. Kenny will offer a hefty raise. Hank will be flattered. He’ll sign with no questions asked, and go back to selling designer sportswear over the internet from his undoubtedly enormous and fluffy bed with Emma.

Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 07/24/08 at 06:52 PM ET

Transcripted, at least in part.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/24/08 at 07:00 PM ET

To kind of combine this post about Z’s contract and rising value, and the post from “yetanotherwingtransplant”, I was wondering what the highest-drafted Conn Smythe winner has been?  Henrik Zetterberg was drafted number 210 overall.  Has there ever been anyone drafted that high to turn around and win a freakin’ Conn Smythe trophy—
while still on his entry-level contract, no less!

Since many GMs say that it’s rare a player drafted after the 3rd or 4th rounds to even play in the NHL, I find it astounding that someone drafted in the 7th round can go on to win a Conn Smythe in his 6th year playing…and he’s only going to get better.

Part of me hopes Kenny signs him for the exact same money that he signed Datsyuk for.

Posted by BuzzFledderjohn on 07/24/08 at 07:04 PM ET

My initial guess would be 7-8 years, 7-7.45 per (can’t be more than Lids). 

Part of me hopes Kenny signs him for the exact same money that he signed Datsyuk for.

Well, I’m not sure about Z, but according to some insider pittsburgh sports guy (TIOPS, I think Pens fans consider him to be legit), the Wings initial offer to Hossa was 6 years, 6.67 per, which falls right in line with Datsyuk (6 years remaining, 6.7 per).

Posted by yetanotherwingtransplant from norcal on 07/24/08 at 07:29 PM ET

Yetanother… (I’m too lazy to type your entire name, though the irony that this parenthetical is much longer is not lost on yours truly)- thanks for the link.  Makes the hot Denver summer days pass much more pleasantly…  And remember, Andreas (“The King”) Lives.

As for Mule, if I’m KH, I’m almost hoping he pots 20-30 at most and no more, as an amazing breakout season makes keeping both him and Hossa that much tougher (unless the cap skyrockets after the coming season, and even then it could get tricky).

I think Z gets more than Pavel.  I’m thinking close to, if not equal to, Lidstrom-scale.  Perhaps the single downside of the Hossa signing- how can you pay Hank less than Hossa gets, especially given the fact that Hossa didn’t play a single second in the Winged Wheel prior to the deal… 

In an ideal world, Hank and Hossa both take 6.7 and Franzen, after scoring 50 this year, takes four and a half on a seven year term, just cause the water in Novi tastes so sweet…  Ahh, to dream…

Posted by mudshark from Divetown, Colorado on 07/24/08 at 08:37 PM ET

I do recall reading sometime ago that money isn’t too big of an issue for Zetterberg.  He is drawn very strongly to the family atmosphere cherished by the Ilitches and wants very much to remain a part of it for life.

I’m not saying he’s not deserving of a great raise commensurate with his past and future performances.  I just read that Zetterberg wants to remain a Wings player for life.

That is all.

Posted by SYF from Las Vegas, NV on 07/24/08 at 08:56 PM ET

My initial guess would be 7-8 years, 7-7.45 per (can’t be more than Lids).

yetanotherwingtransplant (the copy-paste function is a lovely shortcut), I think that Z will probably command a deal in the $7.5 range…

But, as SYF notes…

I do recall reading sometime ago that money isn’t too big of an issue for Zetterberg.  He is drawn very strongly to the family atmosphere cherished by the Ilitches and wants very much to remain a part of it for life.

I’m not saying he’s not deserving of a great raise commensurate with his past and future performances.  I just read that Zetterberg wants to remain a Wings player for life.

From what I’ve read in the Swedish papers over the past few years, Z is very serious about staying a Red Wing.  He loves living in Metro Detroit, where he isn’t followed around like a rock star because of his status and/or who his girlfriend is, he loves playing with Pavel, he’s very, very proud of being a Red Wing, and he’s stated that one of his main goals, career-wise, is to remain a Red Wing. 

He might end up commanding a salary in the low $8’s if his agent talks some “cents” into him, but I don’t believe that he’s going to break the bank.  He’s going to look for a Datsyuk-like long-term deal that locks him up until he’s 35.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/24/08 at 09:24 PM ET

Kudos to Lil’ Gary:

Gary Bettman: My first reaction is, we have a salary cap, and since the ice is level for everybody, the well-run organizations, the organizations that are respected by players, the places that are desirable for players to come to are going to do very well. It goes to the point that I made a few minutes ago about how well the Ilitches and the organization with Kenny Holland run the Red Wings, and I think that it’s a testament to the city of Detroit, to the Red Wings organization, to ownership, that this is something that he wanted to do, but I think you hit it on the head; I think you have a player in Hossa who decided that he wanted to go to a place that would be special, and a place that would give him a chance to hoist the Cup, and those kinds of decisions get made all the time.

From a league standpoint, it doesn’t matter, we pay out 57% one way or another, so it’s a question of allocation, and it’s a question of where players think that they’ll have a great opportunity to win and enjoy the opportunity to play. You know, it’s funny; prior to the work stoppage, people, perhaps unfairly, accused the Wings of buying Cups. Well, they’re not doing that; they’re playing with the same number of chips as anybody else, and they’re winning just as much! That tells you how good the organization is.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/07/bettman_participates_in_stoney.html

Posted by w2j2 on 07/24/08 at 09:25 PM ET

I gander he’d command $6.5 mil to about $7.25 mil.

No way Holland goes over Lidas’ salary.

Posted by SYF from Las Vegas, NV on 07/24/08 at 09:31 PM ET

Reading the Pens’ blogger’s take on Hossa…

I’ve got to actually believe Kenny Holland here.  He’s a squirrelly fellow sometimes, but I really don’t believe that the Wings offered him more than $5 million a year over a short-term contract, and I think that Holland really did bow out once he’d confirmed the money that Hossa was commanding on the open market (why read TSN when you can call Rich Winter and ask instead?  Agents are more than willing to say, “He’s being offered X, are you interested in matching it?”), only to get that fateful call from Winter at the Mobil that probably made Holland as happy as $2-a-gallon gas.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/24/08 at 09:34 PM ET

the copy-paste function is a lovely shortcut

Yes, ashamed to admit I often display signs of computer illiteracy…

Posted by mudshark from Divetown, Colorado on 07/24/08 at 09:35 PM ET

Yetanother… (I’m too lazy to type your entire name, though the irony that this parenthetical is much longer is not lost on yours truly)

yetanotherwingtransplant (the copy-paste function is a lovely shortcut)

Whatever works, guys…it’s all good.  I suppose I could use my actual name, but whenever I type “transplant” I get a warm and fuzzy feeling as I think about our favorite Denver Post and ESPN columnist.  There really is just so many of us all over—I’m continually amazed at how many fellow Michiganders and Wing fans I meet over here—but I guess you knew that already.  Certainly Mr. Frei does. 

As for the topic at hand, I’m not going to fret about it as it’s in Tick Tock’s hands…he’ll find a way to get it all done.  You know, Z’s birthday coincides with our season opener/banner raising, pretty cool way to celebrate I’d say.

Posted by yetanotherwingtransplant from norcal on 07/24/08 at 11:48 PM ET

Yetanother… (I’m too lazy to type your entire name, though the irony that this parenthetical is much longer is not lost on yours truly)

yetanotherwingtransplant (the copy-paste function is a lovely shortcut)

Initials would be YAWT. 

I think with a salary cap more players are going to become amenable to not equating their salary as explicitly with their value.  When a team could spend whatever they liked, to argue “player A is worth more than player B, so his contract should be worth X dollars” had a lot of logic to it.  Now the team can respond “yes, player A is definitely worth X dollars, but we only have some amount Y (where Y < X) available.”  I think more players are going to look at factors other than salary because they are going to have to, since they might run into a situation where no matter what they are worth, not one of the teams they might like to play for has enough room to meet pure monetary requirements.

As long as an organization treats a player with respect and doesn’t offer them something insulting like 20% of their potential value, I think most players will be willing to take less to be in a place where they like to play.  The ones who don’t will wind up getting $8 million to play with league-minimum linemates on a lousy team, and that can’t be as much fun as getting $6 million but having competent linemates on a team that wins more often than it loses.

I don’t think the idea that Zetterberg simply can’t make less than Hossa will hold, either.  Zetterberg will get a long-term contract, and Hossa only has a one-year deal.  I think it’s pretty clear that his (Hossa’s) case is exceptional.  He (Zetterberg) may very well make more than Hossa, but I don’t think the other contracts will be a determining factor.

I mean, if salaries were determined on what guys deserved based on their play on the ice, Lidstrom would be making $10 million a year and Bertuzzi would get 25 bucks a game plus meal money. 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/25/08 at 03:14 AM ET

Since Paul’s entry on Mr. Kelly brought my NHLPA flags out…

Even as ardent a PA supporter as myself must suggest that Ken Holland’s unwritten salary cap management rule is probably the best one out there—when the money you can spend on salaries is limited, you only have so much to go around, and “selling” players on signing slightly below their market value so that you have the cap space left over to sign complimentary players and/or re-sign integral performers is huge, huge, huge.

If we simply look at the deals that were signed over the last few months, Dan Cleary’s signing at a slightly reduced rate allowed the Wings to explore re-signing Brad Stuart at a competitive number, and his decision to take somewhere between $500,000 to $1 million less than he could have earned elsewhere (just like Cleary) enabled the Wings to go after Hossa, whose willingness to abide by the “team cap max” allows the Wings to re-sign Filppula, Chelios, Howard, Quincey, Ericsson, possibly McCarty and/or Downey, and fill out the Griffins’ roster instead of forcing Ken Holland to spend August deciding who he’s going to move to get back under the salary cap. 

When you can convince players to take a little less than their market value so that there’s money available to sign somebody like Hossa while retaining Filppula’s services and the cap space necessary for injury call-ups and a possible trade deadline acquisition, that’s what it’s all about—saving some space to add a player to the roster who can contribute and give the players who gave up some bucks a better chance to win.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/25/08 at 05:20 AM ET

Thanks Gary.  Ass,

Posted by Kristie from Ann Arbor on 07/25/08 at 06:13 AM ET

George, as usual, says alot of it quite well there.
Wonder what it’s like for Kenny’s kids to negotiate allowances with him?
As Kenny & The Brain Trust say so often, it’s a culture and a family. It’s been going on for years (Stevie & Shanny going to Kenny and foregoing some salary to pick up Hully for example) and the current generation of Wings is made up of a bunch of guys who want to stay Wings. Salary cap era sports tend to building teams for short terms, not for guys looking to hang their skates up with the team they were drafted by. Nik, Pavel and Hank are prime examples here. They could easily make more $ anywhere but DUH, why go anywhere or even want to??? Even freaking Lilja “gets it” and says why would I want to play anywhere else, if he gets it, Fil, Z, Mule etc all should too. But the Mule was tough last time around… this time he and his twit agent will have more ammo too, especially if the Mule pots 30+ again.
Z has been groomed to be next in line after Nik for wearing the C, he had the stall next to Stevie for a few years for a reason. That will be a true honor for anyone, yet even more special for Hank to take over for a fellow countryman and a living legend. I sincerely doubt Z will walk away from that, I know I wouldn’t. That mentailty is part of the reason I’m such a puckhead and seemingly lose more interest in all other pro sports….
As Shanny said when Feds wanted out “Sergie wants to be the guy, not just one of the guys”. Seeing Pavel n Hank mature into the players they are has been nothing short of awesome. Seeing them turn the corner and play out their careers in Detroit will be just as awesome.

Posted by MoWingsfan19 on 07/25/08 at 08:14 AM ET

Wings Salary Structure

This chart used to be on NHLSCAP.com and later moved to hockeybuzz.com, which I’m not very thrilled with at all.  I imagine talks with Zetterberg and Franzen will go well into January of ‘09.  Holland has said, however, that he would like to get all of the contract talks settled very early into the season or even before the start of the season so the players can only worry about playing.

Posted by SYF from Las Vegas, NV on 07/25/08 at 09:39 AM ET

George, as usual you’re right on.

and Bertuzzi would get 25 bucks a game plus meal money.

“Yes, Todd, you’re definitely worth 25 dollars plus meal money, but we only have some amount Y (where Y = $25, flat) available.”

Posted by BobTheZee on 07/25/08 at 12:24 PM ET

Initials would be YAWT.

But who likes Walt Whitman?  Not I.  Even if it is a mighty Red-Winged yawt.

that can’t be as much fun as getting $6 million but having competent linemates on a team that wins more often than it loses.

Hence the point of the hometown discount, and Kenny sticking to his guns on it.  The whole point of the discount is to build a good team that everybody is an integral part of.  Take slightly less than your market value (but still make decent money), and there will be room under the cap to sign more good players who want to be there, and your team will enjoy success.  This summer’s signing of Hossa is testament to that.  While other teams can throw multi-millions at a single player and then surround him with a bunch of roleplayers, you know they’re not in Cup contention.  The players that understand this stay for less (Nick Lidstrom), the ones who don’t make inflated money elsewhere but never get close again (Marty Lapointe).  Cleary knows that a large part of the reason that he was the first native of Newfoundland & Labrador to become a Stanley Cup champ is because he signed for less than what he was worth on the open market.  As the poster child for the Babcock Way, in this again he is pointing the way forward for players who believe in the winged wheel on their chests and in those around them wearing the same logo; not those who believe in the greenback.

This is why I think that, given Zetterberg’s attitude and his comments in the media, he’ll sign a long-term deal worth around what Datsyuk is making.  $6.7 million a year will still put him in the top quarter of player salaries, so he won’t catch hell from the PA.  It’s lower than his market value, but enough to make him a very wealthy man for life.  And it won’t dent Datsyuk’s ego either.  Plus it keeps the two of them playing together—you can just tell that they really enjoy playing on each other’s line.

But the Mule was tough last time around… this time he and his twit agent will have more ammo too, especially if the Mule pots 30+ again.

That worries me too, and I don’t see negotiations with him going nearly as well as they do with Z.  Luckily, we have something of a bargaining chip in this—Hossa.  It’s OBVIOUS Hossa came to us because he believes in something greater than the paycheck.  And that can be a useful bit of leverage in negotiations with Franzen.  If he really insists on holding out, he can be told he’ll get nothing from the Wings and Hossa will get his money and will be able to enjoy his years of continued success.  Realistically, I don’t see us being able to sign both of them, but if Franzen develops into the power forward we think he’s becoming, I’m okay with him re-signing and Hossa going.

The strange thing is, for all these signings, I’m not worried about an early signing like I used to be.  I used to worry that when a player signed a big, long-term contract, they’d slack off, and I had some worries with Datsyuk.  Luckily he proved them unfounded.  I think a lot of that is down to Babcock.  He doesn’t seem to care how much money a player is making—if they take a shift off, they’re benched.  It used to be said that Lou Lamoriello put the Fear of Lou into his players.  I think now that Mike Babcock is doing a variant of that, and getting everything out of everyone.

It’s good to be a Wings fan.

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from the sharp end of a Friday evening on 07/25/08 at 12:48 PM ET

I’ve been staring at ‘BuzzFledderjohn’ for five minutes, saying it to myself in different ways, trying to see if it’s childish and dirty—in a ‘Howie Felterpus’ sort of way.

So far, I’ve got nothing.

Posted by O-Joe on 07/25/08 at 12:57 PM ET

I think Z wants to be Stevie and Lidas like. Spend their whole career as a cornerstone of the organization and then head upstairs for grooming.

Can’t you see Lidas as GM for the Swedish national team? Then Z later on?

I have a weird, not good weird, feeling about Franzen though. I hope I’m being paranoid but I think resigning him will be difficult.

Posted by Osrt on 07/25/08 at 01:27 PM ET

This mentality-culture all really started with Scotty. The commitment to being a Red Wing was there for some players but not many. The “absolute adamant demand we change our style of play” (quoting The Captain from His Night when referring to Scotty) is the lynch pin. Guys had to conform to the system and 100% buy into it. If you didn’t there was hell to pay & thw wrath and scorn of a man one needs not cross more than once (ask Shanny he lived in Scottys shit house for years or ask Feds how much he liked playing D for a full game or 3).
Uncle Mike has the same Machavellian motivation but without the mind games that Scotty liked (or still does?) so much. Uncle Mikes formal education helps him out a ton. He knows when to pull out the whip and crack it on someones butt & he also knows when the guys need a day off to avoid burn out, mental fatigue etc.
I’ve always been leary of guys signing long deals too, my ideal contract was 3 maybe 4 years. The new NHL seems geared to longer contacts. These contracts are akin to buying futures & locking in future performance at present financial rates & there is always risk involved with this style of investing. Signing 10+ year deals still seems silly to me however.
The Mule’s last contract was tough according to Kenny. I 110% agree with Andrew, with Hossa a Wing we’ve got some contingency plans in motion IF The Mule (more like the twit agent) make his contract negotiations reach an impass. We need the physical nature, size and his BIG Shrek noggin down & headed to the net. And Homer’s definately not getting any faster in his age & you have to start to wonder how the years of ABUSE he’s taken will grind on him in the later stage of his career (and yes, another career Wing too).

Posted by MoWingsfan19 on 07/25/08 at 02:28 PM ET

I heard DMac on Stoney & Wojo today, basically says deal will get done with Wings.  2-way was brought up but he stated he will go to camp thinking Wings all the way.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 07/25/08 at 03:33 PM ET

It’s OBVIOUS Hossa came to us because he believes in something greater than the paycheck.

And maybe a little help from Uncle Mike, too?

Bowman’s interview, also from Stoney and Wojo, courtesy of George @ Snapshots:

“...Mike Babcock knows a lot about him, too, because Mike told me after the handshake, after the last game, he said to Hossa, you know, “Why don’t you come to Detroit,” and he said the response he got from Hossa was, he said, “I like Detroit!”

Posted by yetanotherwingtransplant, aka yawt from norcal on 07/26/08 at 01:41 AM ET

he said, “I like Detroit!”

I do too, but I really have good memories of it, and as much of a post-industrial wasteland it can be, it’s what’s familiar to me, and hence comforting.  But most people here just shudder at the thought of it—though they’ve never been.  Now I haven’t seen much of Slovakia, but what I’ve seen has been pretty and charming.  So it’s nice to see at least one European who likes Detroit (though I concede he may have been referring to the team rather than the town).  The only person I know who ‘gets it’ is an Italian friend of mine who has a thing for dusty, sun-beaten dirt lots that everybody thinks are grim and ugly—he used to play soccer on them as a kid.

Is it just me, or is the 2006 draft shaping up to be another 1989?  1989 produced a disproportionate amount of bonafide NHLers, among them Nick and Sergei Fedorov.  That draft also introduced Vladdie, Bob Boughner, and Mike Sillinger, and there’s no doubt that it reaped huge dividends for the Wings and is still paying off today.  Now not to get too ahead of myself, but 2006 seems to have dug up more than a few promising prospects for us—Hat Trick Dick, Daniel Larsson, Jan Mursak, Logan Pyett, and the tenth-ranked North American skater, Cory Emmerton.  All of these guys are ranked in the top fifteen prospects, all have pretty tremendous upside (none are projected as depth players), and all of them could turn pro this year, which is a pretty huge step in itself (though Axelsson could spend another year in the Elitserien).  And in the crystal ball, these guys have contributor written all over them.  If three or four pan out and fulfil even part of their potential, then they could again pay off well for us.  Now, if only we’d kept Shawn Matthias…(Honestly though, I’m skeptical of his ‘superstar’ potential—a few good games do not a superstar career make, and I still view his trade as a minor bump on a very good body of work by the organization.)

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from a molasses-slow summer Saturday afternoon on 07/26/08 at 10:24 AM ET

My friends and I often talk about the different ways one can see beauty in Detroit, not despite, but precisely because it is the wasteland that it is. Aside from the rich labor history, the city still develops amazing art. Unlike most of “feed me through the mainstream” American aesthetics, one has to dig around to find the ‘scenes’ in Detroit; the payoff is quite amazing.

When I first began going to school in Detroit proper, I went through all the same reactions that I see the new PhD students go through. Detroit as shock, as spectacle, as our apocalyptic future, as modernity’s failed promise, as a call to political organization etc, etc…

The city can be a Rorschach test.

...

The 2006 class does indeed look promising Andrew, and if it produces anyone like Fed, Vladdie or Lidas, well…I’ll just explode.

When does Matthias hit the NHL anyway?

And although we have a glut of good defenseman, I’m annoyed that Mike Green was traded away for the freaking Enigma. That kid looks like another Brian Leetch.

Posted by Osrt on 07/26/08 at 01:01 PM ET

I’ve been staring at ‘BuzzFledderjohn’ for five minutes, saying it to myself in different ways, trying to see if it’s childish and dirty—in a ‘Howie Felterpus’ sort of way.

So far, I’ve got nothing.

Please stop staring at me.  Kinda creepy.

Actually my name is the name of a Tom Waits song:

Tom Waits - Buzz Fledderjohn Live

Posted by BuzzFledderjohn on 07/26/08 at 03:32 PM ET

Matthias, I think, made his NHL debut in a few games last year - I remember gushing articles about their new power forward and how much the fans were going to like him and how big a part of the future he was for the team.

And technically, wasn’t Mike Green obtained with a draft pick that was traded?  Detroit might have taken someone different with the pick had they kept it.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/26/08 at 06:54 PM ET

Yup, Mike Green went to Washington thanks to the Robert Lang trade.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/26/08 at 07:27 PM ET

what about Z getting a back-loaded contract? Why hasn’t anyone mentioned that? He can make “The Nick Rate” for 4 more seasons (fingers crossed), then be back-loaded to what will be our new “Z-Rate”, which nobody will be able to top.

Posted by cowboycoffee from San Francisco on 07/27/08 at 01:44 AM ET

You can’t do that anymore.  If you front-load or back-load a contract, you end up increasing the average salary over the length of the entire term, and that’s your cap hit, not the actual money you’re paying out to the player.  That’s why the Rags were able to technically exceed the cap to pay Gomez and Drury what they did ($10 million)—the average salary over the terms of those players’ contracts isn’t $10 million.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/27/08 at 02:48 AM ET

Good comments everyone. Not much more to add.

Posted by hankyspanky40 from Michigan on 07/27/08 at 09:42 AM ET

Alright bitches, here is what I said in the “The Value of Z” thread on the Empire’s main page.

This may sound insane, but I would rather have Franzen than Hossa if the cap demands either player has to go. I may change my mind as I get to know Hossa, but Mule is just coming into his own.

not as declarative as it should be but you get the idea

discuss…

Posted by Osrt on 07/28/08 at 12:17 AM ET

Osrt,
I eluded to that line of thinking on Friday. We need the Mule or someone just like him. Homer’s no youngster and has been absolutely pounded on for a good number of years. The style of game wears on anyone. Having Homer and the Mule allows to have a complete pest on the ice for both PP units as well as makes the second line nearly as dangerous as the Circus.
We’re going to have have skill up front for the near future as well as long term. Hence the importance of the big body that likes to crash, bang and drag 3-4 guys along to the front of the net in tow… The Mule is on the fast track to a throw back style power forward & there are few of them in the NHL, nevermind in our organ-I-zation.
Granted if Hossa is the fit we anticipate and expect, I’d love to see both stick around. IF I had to choose, I’d like to wait til about April to make the choice.

Posted by MoWingsfan19 on 07/28/08 at 08:14 AM ET

You wants discussion?  I give you discussion…

I give you discussion because, Osrt, I can’t debate—because I agree with you.  For right now, Franzen is the better player for us to lock up long-term.  We already know how he fits in with the team (well), and we don’t know about Hossa.  He seems to be developing into a premier power forward, thirteen playoff goals (in fifteen games) to his credit—that is freaking STELLAR.  If he can continue that development into this season, and show us that he’s now a different player to what he was when he first entered the League, then (especially given his age) he can be a real force for the next five years at least.  And then there’s his defensive prowess—tending to be overlooked in the last few months because of his nose for the net, but it’s worth remembering that he can be a suffocating defensive presence, right up there with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, if he needs to.  And if it weren’t for the fact that he’s now spending much more time in the offensive zone, we’d still be noticing the great defense that he still brings to every shift.  Good two-way forwards like that don’t come along every day.

Finally, it’s probably worth mentioning that even if he does become what we saw over the last few months of the season, he’ll still probably be cheaper in the long-term than Hossa.  Hossa has several amazing seasons under his belt, some on particularly lousy teams.  Franzen, even at the end of 2009, will still only have one and a quarter seasons’ worth of astounding play, all coming on one of the League’s elite teams.  Hossa will be a proven commodity; Franzen, not so much.  Given both have good seasons, I could see Hossa commanding over 8 million a year next July First, but Franzen only attracting offers somewhere in the five million range (of course, given the way the organization conducts things, I expect at least one of them will be signed for the long term before 1 July 2009).  Zetterberg is due a big raise next year, and all indications from the the press are that if nothing gets done long-term for Fil, then he’ll end up with a two-year deal (though I’m starting to get nervous there).  We’ll likely need the room in 2010 to give Fil a raise too.  And in all honesty, though the though of Lidstrom’s retirement scares me, when his salary comes off the books we’ll get a big cushion—but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit to see him sign another two-year extension (especially if Cheli keeps up as a role model), and that would require some forward planning.

So right now?  Yeah, I say go with Franzen long-term.  Depending on how the season and negotiations with the two play out, I may change my tune.  But if we had to choose right now, I’d invest in The Mule for the future.

Detroit might have taken someone different with the pick had they kept it.

Knowing our drafting, it would have been somebody even better than Green.  And instead we ended up with Lang and his flowing locks.

I’m not sure you could say that Matthias has hit the NHL, but he’s had a taste.  He’s already played a few games for Florida, including one in which he scored twice on a sub-par goaltender.  That’s promise, but not a guarantee.

BTW, George, I read your piece on Meech.  Have you heard any further news on getting his name on the Cup?  How about Fil’s contract?  Questions, questions!

Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from The Mule's corner, pom-poms in hand on 07/28/08 at 08:55 AM ET

Just a little reminder for Mule, Hossa, Zetterberg, Hudler, Kopecky, heck even Sammy (and really, after his Cup finals performance he deserves a bit of a A2Y reprieve, at least until the 4th game or so):

McCarty, Draper, Osgood ... those who stay will be champions (St. James piece during the Cup finals)

Kronwall:

“I would have signed even longer,” he said. “I really like being here, and any time we get a new player in, they always say this is by far the best place they’ve been.”

Homer:

“Why move when you like it so much here?” Holmstrom asked. “I know my family is going to have it good here, and that’s a big part of it, too. And I love, love to be on a winning team.”

The Captain:

“I think we’ve tried to find players who want to win, who aren’t just looking for personal gains—they want to be in a good situation and want to put their hockey careers first, ahead of personal gains and money and individual statistics. I think it’s more a tribute to the players that have decided to stay than the organization, that those guys have wanted to play on a competitive team.”

The captain:

“We’ve got great ownership with Mr. and Mrs. Ilitch,” Lidstrom said. “They want to win and have kept a lot of guys for a long time, and that’s a big part of our success. I think that’s why you see a lot of guys signing midseason instead of waiting until July 1.”

Ozzie with the last word:

That’s what the Red Wings are about—it’s never about individual records or what your stats are at the end of the year; it’s about the team. That’s why regardless of the roles we’re given, we’re happy to be here. We’re competitive guys, too, who want to play all the time and be a part of everything, but at the same time, we love being here. Not a lot of teams have that and I think it’s one of the reasons we’re so successful.”

Posted by yawt from norcal on 07/28/08 at 10:27 AM ET

Posted by yawt from norcal on 07/28 at 11:27 AM

Got tired of typing, eh? 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/28/08 at 11:30 AM ET

Indeed.  This commenting thing is addicting!

Posted by yawt from norcal on 07/28/08 at 12:41 PM ET

This commenting thing is addicting!

No doubt. And if you’re Andrew, it’s a quick warm up for your main project, finishing up Locke’s little known Fourth Treatise On Government  

Yawt: You should copy and paste that post over at the “How much is Z worth” thread. There is a poopyhead over there who doesn’t seem to get it.

Posted by Osrt on 07/28/08 at 01:23 PM ET

Indeed.  This commenting thing is addicting!

Beats heck out of arguing with fictitious voices in your own head, that’s for sure. 

Yawt: You should copy and paste that post over at the “How much is Z worth” thread. There is a poopyhead over there who doesn’t seem to get it.

Steve has some good points, but I think a lot of players - not just Zetterberg - are going to have to adjust their expectations in the light of the salary-cap-imposed-limitations on spending.  Each dollar one player gets is one that can’t be spent improving shaky goaltending, or getting a decent winger for his line, or shoring up the defense.

It’s one thing for Lidstrom (for example) to say “I want to be the highest paid player at my position,” and get the money from either his current team or someone else.  It’s another thing for the response to be, “fine, we can do that - but understand that means your defense partner won’t be Rafalski, it will be (insert name of least competent defenseman you can think of here), because that is all we have cap space for.”

I know I’d reconsider my stance if that was the clear trade-off I was presented with.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/28/08 at 02:02 PM ET

It’s one thing for Lidstrom (for example) to say “I want to be the highest paid player at my position,” and get the money from either his current team or someone else.  It’s another thing for the response to be, “fine, we can do that - but understand that means your defense partner won’t be Rafalski, it will be (insert name of least competent defenseman you can think of here), because that is all we have cap space for.”

Yeah, Nik we’re pairing you with Lilja.
Someone had to say it.

Posted by MoWingsfan19 on 07/28/08 at 02:21 PM ET

Someone had to say it.

I didn’t want to be the ogre and say it! 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/28/08 at 02:30 PM ET

Baroque,
Somehow even if you tried, I don’t see you having an ounce of ogre in ya. Even if you do, you’re waaaaaaaaaaaay to eloquent to come off as one.
Does my statement make me an ogre on the other hand???
Although if you ever have to get that restraining order on RWBill…. ya might look like a meanie (no no, not I Dream of Geenie).
Sorry, couldn’t help myself again or didn’t want to.

Posted by MoWingsfan19 on 07/28/08 at 03:53 PM ET

point well made B. I still get to call Steve a poopyhead.

Somehow even if you tried, I don’t see you having an ounce of ogre in ya.

Haven’t you seen Shrek? All women are ogres at the core. You all saw how she swore at me

I had nightmares

Posted by Osrt on 07/28/08 at 04:34 PM ET

All women are ogres at the core.

The single most brilliant thing ever posted. Anywhere. Ever.

Posted by rwingscup19 from Dallas on 07/28/08 at 05:36 PM ET

All women are ogres at the core.

Ah well, other than having lived with the same woman for all but a decade and yes still truly celebrated a 5 year wedding anniversary 2 days ago…..(as in had a bash on the newly built, by me, pool deck too!).
Yeah I kinda had a clue to the existance of ogresses??? Which is fine, so long as her ogressness is aimed elsewhere.

I thought Shrek was another nickname for our Mule….

Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 07/28/08 at 05:37 PM ET

The single most brilliant thing ever posted. Anywhere. Ever.

You have the cooties too huh? 

I thought Shrek was another nickname for our Mule….

It is now!

Posted by Osrt on 07/28/08 at 05:54 PM ET

But I am an ogre (or ogress), really!  Honest, I’m mean and nasty and wicked and ... and I’m not fooling anyone, am I?

(Didn’t think so.)

I had nightmares

Sorry, sweetie.  Didn’t mean to scare you.  May I offer you my most profound apologies.  Would you buy that I wasn’t cussing at you, but with you? 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/28/08 at 06:26 PM ET