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How’s The Hate? Want Some More?
by IwoCPO on 06/19/09 at 07:11 AM ET
Comments (133)
I’m not sure the Gore could handle it, but George Malik points us to a Pittsburgh Tribune-Review ditty that focuses on the joys of a Wings/Pens trifecta.
The loathing between these teams and their cities has only begun to boil, so, no, it cannot end now.
Loathing? I can dig that. And here’s the thing. As this rivalry gets meaner and even more intense, that’s a good thing for the league. There are is no middle ground with any hockey fan anywhere. You hate the Wings, or you love the Wings. You genuflect in front of a Sidney Crosby poster every morning, or you admit he’s a pathetic example of what a captain should be. Not much neutrality there.
The fans of each team are getting there. We’ve seen what a rivalry looks like, before Denver tanked. And Pittsburgh’s in the midst of a few of their own with Philly and Washington. We have Chicago yapping a bit and I suppose Columbus could eventually evolve into a hate-fest.
But this one has awesome potential. All the ingredients are there: exceptional skill, playoff history, rabid contingents of fans rapidly developing a healthy level of hate, dislike between superstars, and the very real possibility that each team could be very good for years to come. There’s also respect. We point to players like Talbot, Orpik and Malkin as examples of clutch play, grit and huge talent. Pens fans can admit there are players on the Wings that scare and impress them at the same time.
Rivalries between Eastern and Western Conference teams are tough to sustain, mainly because they’ll probably play just twice, if that, during the regular season. If Gary.Ass had any marketing instincts at all (what an idiotic “if” that is) then he’d make sure Wings/Pens happened twice every year until this thing has run its course.
Another SCF between the two is statistically unlikely, but Detroit is as close to a guarantee as you can find in the West while Pittsburgh might be able to avoid Boston again and find their way to the Final, as well. There is that gnawing feeling, though, that things are a bit unsettled. Pens fans, misguided as they may be, point to last year and claim their team was all nervous and shell shocked for Games 1 and 2, and had they not been so uneasy, they would have won the series. Naturally, they’re forgetting that the Wings owned much of Game 5 and all of Game 6.
And Wing fans, at least those of us here, will not back down from our view that injuries, officiating and even a little help from Sidney’s Daddy contributed to a Pens Cup win.
So a third one could potentially settle that. A home-and-home in January would help set the stage. And don’t forget the Olympics in February. If Canada and Sweden meet for the gold? Who do you think is going to be all over Crosby…again?
All the ingredients of a traditional rivalry, plus a few added bonus hate points. Awesome.
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Comments
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Putting total numbers together doesn’t tell anything about how the finals went down. 9 of the penguins penalties were in their little meltdown in game 5
With that being the case (and I would argue that the number of penalties in that came were higher because of their poor play, but there were still other penalties called on the Penguins in that game) the total were still 21 to 18. And that’s without going back to see if any of the Wings penalties were late in the game.
The Pens were consistently able to get away with holding and interference
The Penguins had the advantage in officiating. It’s not a conspiracy by the NHL, just a simple fact of what happened and something that a lot of teams that end up winning the Cup have the benefit of.
Even with the caveat at the end it still sound like you think there is no way a team beats the wings without help from the refs.
Just because they statistically had more PIM doesn’t mean they didn’t get away with more. It just means the officiating called more penalties on them.
Well, duh. LOL. I guess the point was if the Penguins got away with so much why were they called for anything? A lot of stuff goes uncalled in these games…see picture above.
Detroit goes on the power play and on their rush into the Pittsburgh zone are called offsides. does this look offsides to you?
No, but I also cannot see where the puck is or tell when it crossed line. Nor do I know if there was anyone else in on the rush. But argument is not that there were not bad calls made, but that it went both ways too and even with the alleged disparity in calls the Wings had more oppertunities on the power play.
Nobody argued that there were calls that should have been made both ways, on both teams, and that picture is a good example of one that should have been called on the wings. I think it’s safe to say that there was a pretty much equal amount of little things that didn’t get called on both sides. The problem was the MASSIVE things that went Pittsburgh’s way. It’s just not even up for debate that those things happened, they just simply did. Too many men on the ice. Icing waved off leading to a goal. Pens being offside on one of the Malkin goals. I’m not going to list every one of them but you get the idea. The little things may cancel out on both sides (although Hal Gill probably singlehandedly interfered more than the Wings combined) but even after that you guys got big, big calls and non-calls that directly benefited you. We didn’t get a single one of those.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Temporarily in Tempe, AZ on 06/20/09 at 04:26 PM ET
Even with the caveat at the end it still sound like you think there is no way a team beats the wings without help from the refs.
-The Glenn
I think that no 08-09 team could beat a healthy 08-09 Red Wings team in a 7 game series with even officiating and no one can dissuade me otherwise because I’ll never get to see it happen. In any case, that’s not how hockey works, you win or you lose, and the Penguins won after playing one hell of a series. I’ve already congratulated them and feel no bitterness towards the outcome. I’m only talking about officiating because it’s been brought up and I don’t agree with the way it’s been portrayed.
The advantage is 19-18 if you ignore the useless penalties called at the end of game 2. My issue was with stuff at the blue line, something which the Ducks and Penguins were consistently able to do and was only ever called once, against Detroit. I know both teams got away with a lot, but one picture doesn’t prove anything beyond one instance. All 19-18 shows is that the officiating followed the same line as it did against Anaheim, give teams equal PP time regardless of whatever goes on the ice.
Posted by UMcastaway from Ann Arbor on 06/20/09 at 08:27 PM ET
Hey, at least you guys argue the points and don’t just start name calling!
Like I said in my first post here I know arguing isn’t going to change anyone’s mind, but at least it can lead to good debates when the people discussing can remain civil.
I’ve made my say and will let end at that.
Hopefully someday we’ll see a rematch where there is no controversy as perceived from either side!
Posted by The Glenn on 06/20/09 at 09:09 PM ET
I guess the point was if the Penguins got away with so much why were they called for anything?
simple. “got away with so much” is not the same as “got away with everything.”
Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 06/21/09 at 01:13 AM ET
No, but I also cannot see where the puck is or tell when it crossed line.
um, what? two red arrows. one points at the puck, one points at Samuelsson who is not even close to offsides. the puck crosses the line in the next split second. Samuelsson does not.
how can you not see the puck? see the bottom red arrow pointing at the little black dot at the inside of the blue line? that little black dot IS THE PUCK.
Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 06/21/09 at 01:15 AM ET
I see the puck. It’s blinking and bouncing and bleeping everywhere I look. It’s following me around town, asking if I would like it to go into the goal. And if I indulge and say yes, Hal Gill crosschecks Homer and lays down on the Mule and starts humping him and Malkin starts randomly punching Zetterberg in the head because he wants to and Sid dives and whines and dives and whines and dives and whines again and keeps crying until someone gives him a Stanley Cup to suck on and there isn’t a damn thing I can do about it because it’s Gary’s league and not mine and I can’t suspend anyone or send them to the box.
This summer sucks. I’m going to PA to piss and shit in both the Allegheny and Monogalahalelamah Rivers just so a Steelers fan (on vacation as a Pens fan) can drink it.
Still, a week later, *#$%@&!
Posted by cephalopod from Chicago...nope, still not over it. on 06/21/09 at 01:49 AM ET
I’m back from the mountain (or the edge of the cliff if you’d rather). I got some really good meditation in (drinking and yelling at red things) and I’m ready for the lonely sea of the offseason ahead. I only read the comments in the last two posts so I apologize if this isn’t completely original but I was doing what any well-adjusted person who screamed at the three ball on a pool table because it bounced out of the pocket would do, I was thinking about Hossa.
I know the numbers are there and I’m ignoring them because Holland is a wizard and numbers mean nothing in his world. I’m ready to accept Hossa as a Wing again. It was a bit hard not hearing his name on the injury roster after giving him that space for four weeks. However, I realized he was ailing and it was and ailment that very good players have had in the playoffs recently. Datsyuk had it in 2002 and Malkin had it in 2008. It was fatigue. I know he went with the Senators to game seven of the ECF before the lockout, but he’s mostly been languishing in Atlanta. This is the first time he’s ever really faced the intense pressure of playing for a real competitor for an entire season. If two of the top five forwards in the league can get a pass for having that happen, I can give one to Hossa. He was the best Red Wing on the ice for a very good portion of regular season games, but he was playing against other teams’ A-games every step of the way. Now he knows how to handle it and he’s embarrassed that he didn’t. I want him back and will accept nothing shy of a Conn-Smythe level performance come the 2010 playoff run.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/21/09 at 08:41 AM ET
Happy Fathers Day Chief, and to all the Fathers among the 19 and their Fathers too.
Sincerely,
Kate
Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!
Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 06/21/09 at 10:17 AM ET
Hossa, who hitched a ride as a passenger on the Red Wings’ ill-fated Stanley Cup express, is all but certain to be out of Detroit, we’re told. . . .
An interesting quote for sure, but hold on, it comes from Larry Brooks.
Posted by HockeyJoe from Upstate New York on 06/21/09 at 02:37 PM ET
What a joke. You really think officiating and injuries lost the cup for us? Maybe if Zetterberg or Hossa could score when it matters. Or maybe Henrik could do something productive instead of just obstructing Crosby. We lost this cup fair and square. Let’s just admit that Pittsburgh was the better team and stop making asses of ourselves.
Posted by Wow from USA on 06/21/09 at 06:39 PM ET
Actually I think it may have been a combination of things with Hossa
Fatigue , and Media pressure .. yes yes I know they face it everyday but this had to be a thousand times worse think about it no said anything when Conklin left us here in Pittsburgh why because he didn’t say anything when he left .
But with Hossa there was so much will he stay will he go and the waiting for him to make his decision and then his now famous quote about his choice . So not only did he Have the Fatigue But the Media Pressure and I am sure the added pressure he put onto himself , I think if it would have been any other team Hossa would have been Perfectly fine ..
or maybe I am wrong ..
any thoughts ?
And happy Fathers day to all of you dads here
Posted by M71 from Pittsburgh on 06/21/09 at 07:10 PM ET
Posted by Wow from USA on 06/21/09 at 07:39 PM ET
I’m sure you’re a wings fan.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 06/21/09 at 08:06 PM ET
Posted by Wow from USA on 06/21/09 at 07:39 PM ET
Don’t you mean ShamWow?
Posted by monkey from here to Timbuktu on 06/21/09 at 09:28 PM ET
You really think officiating and injuries lost the cup for us? Maybe if Zetterberg or Hossa could score when it matters.
have you read the list of injuries? defensemen with shoulder injuries, testicle surgery, forwards with groin problems, foot problems, etc.
you talk specifically about Zetterberg. no player can do it on his own. when your teammates are injured it makes it harder for you to do what you need to do. and besides all that, Zetterberg’s ONE JOB was shutting down Crosby and he did a phenomenal job of that, for the second year in a row.
anybody who knows about the NHL knows that the playoffs are largely about remaining healthy. Pittsburgh was a lot healthier than Detroit.
as for officiating, as has been said already many times - name a call/non-call that went the Wings way that was crucial. I can name a few for Pittsburgh that were. it’s not so much about what or how many penalties are called as it is about WHEN. they let little interference calls go all game, then tied in the third they call EXACTLY WHAT THEY’VE LET GO ALL GAME, against the Wings, Pittsburgh scores and wins the game. you really don’t see this?
Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 06/21/09 at 10:14 PM ET
From some creative folks in Pennsylvania: The most awesome 2009 Stanley Cup playoffs video yet.
Posted by ThePensFan from The City of Champions on 06/21/09 at 10:19 PM ET
Posted by Wow from USA on 06/21/09 at 07:39 PM ET
I see the trolls are still out enjoying their Cup win, rather than coming on here and posingly extremely badly as Wings fans to make weak arguments. Now that would be lame.
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 06/22/09 at 01:21 AM ET
how can you not see the puck? see the bottom red arrow pointing at the little black dot at the inside of the blue line? that little black dot IS THE PUCK.
Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 06/21/09 at 02:15 AM ET
Actually, Paul, the puck hasn’t entered the zone in that picture yet because it has to completely cross the blue line. If Sammy lifts his back leg before the puck crosses, then he is offside. That play is so close and the linesman has to make a snap call on it. I could see that going either way, especially since the linesman is on the near side of the ice.
Posted by clemshady from Greenwood, SC on 06/22/09 at 09:49 AM ET
For all the bacon lovers amongst the 19: Woot Shirt - 6/22/09 Bacon Bits
A combination of Space Invaders, Galaga, and bacon. It’s only up for today, so see it while you can.
Posted by Aphaea from Pennsylvania on 06/22/09 at 10:17 AM ET
Clem, the puck just has to completely cross the line to be out of the zone. As soon as it touches the line, it is onside. That is why they tried largest bluelines in the AHL for a year, and I personally thought they worked well. Offsides isn’t there to stop a valid play, just cherrypickers. The larger bluelines keep most rushes onsides, while stopping cherrypicking.
Posted by moore00 from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 06/22/09 at 10:24 AM ET
Or maybe Henrik could do something productive instead of just obstructing Crosby.
There is no way this is from a Wings fan… let alone a hockey fan. Zetterberg shut down Crosby. He did not obstruct. If you think that’s obstructing then all you want to see is figure skating with goals. Learn the game for crying out loud.
Posted by calquake on 06/22/09 at 10:38 AM ET
Or maybe Henrik could do something productive instead of just obstructing Crosby.
This statement is full of fail. When the Pens start to suck again, you’ll just go back to whining about the Pirates. You’re a fairweather fan, and that’s cool. A lot of teams have fairweather fans. However, if you want to sound intelligent in a hockey discussion, you might want to learn the game.
When living in a glass house, it’s best to not throw stones. Especially if you want to start talking about obstruction.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 06/22/09 at 11:36 AM ET
Clem, the puck just has to completely cross the line to be out of the zone. As soon as it touches the line, it is onside. That is why they tried largest bluelines in the AHL for a year, and I personally thought they worked well. Offsides isn’t there to stop a valid play, just cherrypickers. The larger bluelines keep most rushes onsides, while stopping cherrypicking.
Posted by moore00 from Grand Rapids on 06/22/09 at 11:24 AM ET
If that’s the case (and it very well may be), then they’ve definitely changed the rule. It used to be the outermost edge of the blue line depicted where the zone ended. That was true for both when the puck was in the neutral zone vs the attacking/defensive zone. That’s the reason players have to cross completely over the blueline to check-up from being offside. I remember they experimented with the larger bluelines in the AHL, but I was under the impression that it was to expand the attacking/defensive zone when the puck was inside of it. Either way, the snapshot that Paul shows is very close and when you consider how quickly that play happens, it’s understandable that it might be missed. It sucks, but it happens. That being said, I was much more put out by some of other missed calls in the series (of which they were numerous and went both ways).
Posted by clemshady from Greenwood, SC on 06/22/09 at 12:48 PM ET
I kept getting a sense of deja-vu about these Finals, and I think I finally figured out why.
Detroit Pistons 2003—Lost in conference finals
Detroit Pistons 2004—Won championship
Detroit Pistons 2005—Lost in game 7 of championship
While I could certainly think of worse things for the Wings to do than to lose in the conference finals each of the next three years, I hope that they can do better than that. 
Posted by Zoogz on 06/22/09 at 02:31 PM ET
That being said, I was much more put out by some of other missed calls in the series (of which they were numerous and went both ways).
Please show me a single one of these that favored the Wings.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Temporarily in Tempe, AZ on 06/22/09 at 02:53 PM ET
Please show me a single one of these that favored the Wings.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Tempe, AZ on 06/22/09 at 03:53 PM ET
Are you kidding me? You even said yourself above that things were missed both ways. I’m not saying that things didn’t favor the Pens. I’m just stating that the refs let a lot of things go and basically swallowed their whistles in the series. Relax.
Posted by clemshady from Greenwood, SC on 06/22/09 at 03:25 PM ET
Are you kidding me? You even said yourself above that things were missed both ways. I’m not saying that things didn’t favor the Pens. I’m just stating that the refs let a lot of things go and basically swallowed their whistles in the series. Relax.
How was anything about my question not relaxed? I’m perfectly calm dude. Calmer than you are. My point was that small things didnt get called both ways, yes, I did say that. But you said some of the other calls and non-calls upset you more than that offsides that was being discussed, so I assumed you were talking about bigger instances than just the minor things that weren’t being called on either side - the blatant bad calls/non-calls. Show me one of those that favored the Wings, like the too many men, being offsides on one of the Malkin goals, waving off icing on the first goal in game 7, etc.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Temporarily in Tempe, AZ on 06/22/09 at 03:38 PM ET
As much as the officials did hide their whistles during the finals, I didn’t think they decided any of the games.
Posted by moore00 from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 06/22/09 at 03:48 PM ET
I would argue the waved-off icing decided game 7.
Then again, the Wings should have played harder.
Moot point, I suppose.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 06/22/09 at 04:00 PM ET
How was anything about my question not relaxed? I’m perfectly calm dude. Calmer than you are. My point was that small things didnt get called both ways, yes, I did say that. But you said some of the other calls and non-calls upset you more than that offsides that was being discussed, so I assumed you were talking about bigger instances than just the minor things that weren’t being called on either side - the blatant bad calls/non-calls. Show me one of those that favored the Wings, like the too many men, being offsides on one of the Malkin goals, waving off icing on the first goal in game 7, etc.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Tempe, AZ on 06/22/09 at 04:38 PM ET
I was mostly talking about the interference on both sides of the puck. If you want a standout example, I can’t give you one without going back and watching the games. I just know that a lot of the stuff that was called in the first three series wasn’t called in the final. That definitely upset me more than a missed offside call. Did that one hurt? Yes. Did it make or break the game or the series? No. If you’re trying to imply that Wings were the lesser beneficiary of the refs, I’m not going to argue with you because I think the instances that you mentioned were much more blatant than anything going in the Wings favor.
Posted by clemshady from Greenwood, SC on 06/22/09 at 06:49 PM ET
The problem is that it’s hard to ever say that one single call ever directly decided the outcome of the game. However there were many calls that without a doubt changed momentum within a game, more than once. If the penalty would have been called for too many men, Wings would have gone on the power play and would have had a good chance at scoring, making that game 3-0. A completely different game then. The Wings should have played harder in game 7, agreed, but the waved off icing did directly lead to a goal that shouldn’t have counted, and considering the game ended 2-1, it is reasonable to say that decided the game.
Posted by stayouttamalibu from Temporarily in Tempe, AZ on 06/22/09 at 08:07 PM ET
the entire “Pittsburgh couldn’t get through the ducks” is an argument ‘The Puck Stops Here’ would make it just sounds stupid. If the Penguins beat the red wings who beat the ducks there is no logical way to reach the conclusion that Anaheim is a better team than Pittsburgh.Detroit skill overcame Anaheim toughness in the finals, despite Hudler getting his head taken off by Brown early, and Datsyuk gettin the business from Niedermayer, the wings proved themselves the better team through skill and I imagine the Pens would do the same. If anyone has an argument to dispute this I would like to hear it. to follow that point Pittsburgh swept the Hurricanes who beat Boston so I don’t think Pittsburgh needs to avoid Boston to win either, especially with Phill Kessel on the trade block just when he get his scroing touch.
Posted by seanwhit from Pittsburgh on 06/27/09 at 07:16 PM ET
hopefully someday you morons will admit that you got beat by a better team in the 2009 finals… until then, continue to wet your bed as you recall sid skating around on your ice with the cup
Posted by wingsuck on 06/28/09 at 01:25 AM ET
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Finally! A blog post that’s not drenched in bitterness. I have been waiting for you to return to form. I really enjoy your blog. Of course, in returning to form, you will have to maintain some level of bitterness (edge, “shock jock-ness,” whatever), or it just wouldn’t seem right. Go Pens.
Posted by Bowens82 from Pittsburgh on 06/20/09 at 03:55 PM ET