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Naysayers Beware
by IwoCPO on 11/02/09 at 07:15 PM ET
Comments (113)
Whew. It’s November 2nd and there the Wings sit…deep, deep, deep down in the 11 spot. Obviously, the playoffs are out of the question. Undoubtedly, we should consider the merits of building through high draft picks. Consecutive 1 or 2’s. We should really lend credence to the inevitable talk of franchise moves to places like Kansas City or Hamilton.
The fun is over. Puppies will frolic no more.
But wait…
They’re clearly in deep, deep trouble when you look at the standings and find them … uh … four points behind the Blackhawks for first place in the Central Division.
I’ve been known to throw some darts at Jamie Samuelsen. Maybe has something to do with the “ie” in his first name. I’m not sure. But..hell yes.
Four points behind Chicago after a month that has nearly led to 19 new rehab admissions well before 1 November? Four points back after a month that just plain sucked.
Sucked by our standards, that is.
Maybe it’s naive, but I view the Calgary game as an indication of what this team continues to be capable of. I view the Calgary game as yet another example of what the Wings can do when really challenged by an “elite” team.
Yes, October has given you a legitimate reason to be skeptical, if not outright concerned. But it’s November 2nd. November. 2nd. Samuelsen’s got it right.
The Wings have been awful, but they’re still within striking distance. When they start playing better, which is inevitable, they’ll be a team to be reckoned with in the division. That might not sound like much, given where this team expects to be. But when the suggestion is made that they might miss the playoffs altogether, it’s something that needs to be pointed out.
Not just within the division. The teams ahead of the Wings right now in the West? LA, Phoenix, Dallas, Vancouver, Denver, Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Edmonton, Calgary. You want to proclaim the Wings won’t compete for the conference title? Give me four teams who will finish ahead of them and why. No…give me two.
And then, of those two, tell me why they’re better. Chicago and San Jose? That’s what you’re thinking isn’t it? How much money would you put down on either beating Detroit in a seven-gamer?
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Jesus, seriously Raf, Kroner and E all have the flu…Cmon guys, this coupled with the fact that everyone had a groin injury all at the same time in the beginning of the season leads me to wonder what shady things are going on in the post game locker room.
Posted by Itrusteddrrahmani from Nyc by way of A2 on 11/03/09 at 11:30 AM ET
Big Rig, JR and Raffi all bit by the flu bug
Maybe the defense was playing tighter than we initially thought.
Posted by Triple Deke Tyler from Lansing on 11/03/09 at 11:31 AM ET
What are the odds for Janik staying in Detroit and Lebda or Meech going out?
we made the list… TWICE
It’s not the best teams list, it’s a rank for the Cup winners of the decade. As we all know, winning the Cup sometimes has nothing to do with being the best.
Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 11/03/09 at 11:32 AM ET
Here is some positive energy, from Sipple at the FREEP:
He said Monday his current line—with Darren Helm and Patrick Eaves—might be the fastest he has ever played on in Detroit.
“All three of us certainly like to skate and get in on the forecheck and create opportunities that way,” Draper said. “It’s been fun. Any time you can try to get chemistry with linemates right off the hop, it helps. Right now the three of us are playing with confidence and feel we can buzz around and feel we can be responsible in our own end and we can create some offense and chip in with some goals.
“I think the three of us trust one another. Two guys in on the forecheck, and we’ve talked about having that third man high and very responsible. We feel that we can go fast at both ends of the rink.”
Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 11/03/09 at 11:39 AM ET
It’s not the best teams list, it’s a rank for the Cup winners of the decade. As we all know, winning the Cup sometimes has nothing to do with being the best.
Sorry, yeah ur right..i think i misread it because i refuse to accept the fact that Carolina is engraved on the greatest trophy in sports.
I really hope one of the sick players contaminated all of Lebda’s things.
Posted by Itrusteddrrahmani from Nyc by way of A2 on 11/03/09 at 11:40 AM ET
Points % is a better indicator of how we’re doing
Really? So if Toronto loses every single game for the rest of the season in OT or SO then they’re doing OK since they’d only be 6 points “below .500”?
Right.
Posted by Garth on 11/03/09 at 11:55 AM ET
What’s that latin word for extending a logical argument to ridiculous proportions?
Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 11/03/09 at 12:06 PM ET
Hmm, Janik rather than Kindl.. what gives?
Posted by CaptNorris5 from The Winged Wheel, stuck in Chicago on 11/03/09 at 12:08 PM ET
What’s that latin word for extending a logical argument to ridiculous proportions?
Reductio ad Absurdum.
Three words, actually. But you could also call the argument apagogical.
/end fun fact of the day
Posted by pilgrim from the ice at the bottom of the world on 11/03/09 at 12:10 PM ET
Hmm, Janik rather than Kindl.. what gives?
Makes sense to me. Janik has more points and a higher +/- than Kindl. He also has NHL experience. We already have Lebda and Ericsson largely lost out there, no need to throw in another question mark. Janik is the steadier and safer choice.
Posted by pilgrim from the ice at the bottom of the world on 11/03/09 at 12:15 PM ET
@ Guilherme
Ad nauseam: “Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is an argument made repeatedly (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it any more.”
Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 11/03/09 at 12:16 PM ET
Funny you bring up Reductio. I was having a flashback to Logic class while reading some of these points posts.
Really? So if Toronto loses every single game for the rest of the season in OT or SO then they’re doing OK since they’d only be 6 points “below .500”?
I don’t feel like doing the math or looking up records, but if that somehow gave TOR enough points to make the playoffs, then that would sound “OK” since, you know, that’s sort of the goal. Sure they’d still suck, but it’s all relative/perspective (however inane this whole thing may be.)
Posted by Triple Deke Tyler from Lansing on 11/03/09 at 12:18 PM ET
From the Boston Globe:
Yesterday, for the first time this season, Bergeron and Sturm were on the same line, practicing with Mark Recchi on the No. 1 threesome.
“Obviously we have to score more goals,’’ said Sturm, whose team was blanked by the Rangers Sunday, 1-0. . .
By dropping Brad Marchand to the third line, Julien is hoping Sturm’s speed and experience playing with Bergeron can bring some scoring punch to the top threesome (Recchi is the right wing). . .
Julien also reassembled last year’s No. 2 line: Blake Wheeler, David Krejci, and Michael Ryder. . .
Sobotka centered Paille and Marchand yesterday. Trent Whitfield, Steve Begin, and Shawn Thornton made up the fourth line. . .
The Bruins most likely will be without Marc Savard (foot) and Milan Lucic (finger) for most, if not all, of November
And there are some comments from Julien:
With Brian Rafalski and Jonathan Ericsson out tonight, the Bruins should get an opportunity to get better looks on goal. The Bruins were blanked in their last outing against the Rangers.
“We know we’ve got enough in our lineup to score goals,” said Claude Julien. “But those guys have to create scoring chances to make it count. That’s the responsibility we have as a team to make those kinds of things happen.”
Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 11/03/09 at 12:23 PM ET
Thanks, pilgrim. I meant “latin expression” but said “word”. My bad.
Jeff, I was referring to Garth’s comment, so the Reductio ad absurdum was what I meant. But sure, this whole useless discussion has been done ad nauseam.
Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 11/03/09 at 12:27 PM ET
Then there is this tidbit from the Boston Herald :
With breakaways, tip-ins, 2-on-1s, big slapshots from the blue line, line rushes, counter-attacks and any other possible method, the Bruins [team stats] spent practice yesterday at Joe Louis Arena working on scoring goals.
It is a skill that has mostly escaped the B’s lately, costing them points in games they otherwise played well enough to win. Such was certainly the case Sunday in New York, where a strong effort against the Rangers was wasted in a 1-0 defeat.
In their past three games, two of them one-goal losses, the Bruins have three goals, putting an obvious spotlight on the absences of injured Marc Savard and Milan Lucic and the departed Phil Kessel [stats], who is expected to make his Toronto debut tonight.
EGAD, flashbacks to the Oil tilt last week?
The Red Wings, the elixir for opponents scoring woes (especially as HTT notes in a first game back from a road trip) - - especially with a flu-ridden “D”?
Brad McCrimmon, I’m looking at you.
Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 11/03/09 at 12:30 PM ET
With Brian Rafalski and Jonathan Ericsson out tonight, the Bruins should get an opportunity to get better looks on goal.
Really? last i heard Ericsson (along with Lebda) has been out on the ice for some of the ugliest goals in hockey.
Posted by Itrusteddrrahmani from Nyc by way of A2 on 11/03/09 at 12:31 PM ET
And Rafalski hasn’t exactly been a pinnacle of defensive responsibility, either.
He’s -1 while his partner (more often than not), Lidstrom, is +7.
Posted by pilgrim from the ice at the bottom of the world on 11/03/09 at 12:45 PM ET
Funny you bring up Reductio. I was having a flashback to Logic class while reading some of these points posts.
Really? So if Toronto loses every single game for the rest of the season in OT or SO then they’re doing OK since they’d only be 6 points “below .500”?
I don’t feel like doing the math or looking up records, but if that somehow gave TOR enough points to make the playoffs, then that would sound “OK” since, you know, that’s sort of the goal. Sure they’d still suck, but it’s all relative/perspective (however inane this whole thing may be.)
Posted by Triple Deke Tyler from Lansing on 11/03/09 at 12:18 PM ET
Ok, so following this same type of logic, let’s say that 2 teams end the 3rd period tied 0 - 0. No one scores in OT and it goes to a shootout. Team # 1’s tender stops all 3 shots and Team # 2’s tender lets one in. Does it still get recorded as a shutout for team 2’s goalie? And if so does he get credit for a shutout and a loss? That would be awesome to get a shutout and lose the game. I’m assuming that the goalie doesn’t get credit for a shutout, even though no player would get credit for the goal.
Just wonderin… Anyone know if this has ever happened? I’m guessing that it must have at some point since they started using the shootout.
And while I’m at it, why are some games worth 3 points and others worth 2? Fackin Gary… Ass.
The more I think about this the more I realize that the NHL is one very screwed up place. No wonder not that many people follow it.
Posted by ITDeuce from The Land of Ice and Snow on 11/03/09 at 12:57 PM ET
Ok, so following this same type of logic, let’s say that 2 teams end the 3rd period tied 0 - 0. No one scores in OT and it goes to a shootout. Team # 1’s tender stops all 3 shots and Team # 2’s tender lets one in. Does it still get recorded as a shutout for team 2’s goalie? And if so does he get credit for a shutout and a loss? That would be awesome to get a shutout and lose the game. I’m assuming that the goalie doesn’t get credit for a shutout, even though no player would get credit for the goal.
http://www.hockey5.com/articles/p2_articleid/2410
If you shut out the other team for 65 minutes, you get credit for a shutout, even though you also get credit for a loss.
I think that’s the correct way to do it for the stats. The guy obviously deserves a shutout, but somebody has to take the loss and if he didn’t want to get it, he should have stopped all the shots during the shootout too.
Sure, it’s an anomaly to have a guy get a shutout for what appears to be a 1-0 loss, but separating those stats is fair.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/03/09 at 01:03 PM ET
Just wonderin… Anyone know if this has ever happened? I’m guessing that it must have at some point since they started using the shootout.
Last month the Coyotes beat the Sharks 1-0 in a shootout, and Nabokov was credited with a shut-out.
Posted by Triple Deke Tyler from Lansing on 11/03/09 at 01:04 PM ET
why are some games worth 3 points and others worth 2?
Because the stupid NHL wants to award the team that failed to lose. That’s what I like about soccer ties: wins worth 3 pts, ties worth 1, because both teams falied to win. So 2 points are distributed in drawn matches. (if you’re going to change the points quantity, downgrade it)
I know we’d have some anomalies (150+ points seasons), but I’d like to see a 3-2-1-0 points system.
Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 11/03/09 at 01:24 PM ET
What’s that latin word for extending a logical argument to ridiculous proportions?
Stupidity?
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 01:26 PM ET
I know that because i was an altar boy. “No Father, I don’t want to cuddle in the vestibule”. 
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 01:28 PM ET
yeah it’s like pitching a no-hitter in a baseball and still losing because you walk in a few runs
shutout through 65 minutes of play but lose in an SO: no hitter in baseball and walk in the GW run.
shutout through 65 minutes of play and don’t allow an SO goal: Perfect Game (you can’t lose)
maybe.
Posted by Itrusteddrrahmani from Nyc by way of A2 on 11/03/09 at 01:37 PM ET
“No Father, I don’t want to cuddle in the vestibule again”.
Missing word added.
Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 11/03/09 at 01:39 PM ET
Hey Mo, nice trophy yesterday. And thanks for the correction. Does that make me the Theo Fleury of altar boys? (Not) making light of his situation)
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 01:51 PM ET
In case you missed it, Dan Rosen has an article/ interview with Uncle Mike (after the recent road trip) at NHL.com:
But Babcock, always a straight shooter, senses good things on the horizon for his beleaguered squad because there are some good vibes coming out of the Wings’ recent road trip and 17 of their next 28 games are at Joe Louis Arena.
Detroit closed out its longest trip of the first half 2-1-2 thanks to a 3-1 victory Saturday night in Calgary. Babcock said it was their best game of the trip “because we got some saves early.” . .
I think as a team we’re skating way better than we were as a start and I think we’re playing way better,” Babcock said. “I haven’t liked our goaltending and I thought as a group we have turned over the puck too much. In saying all that, we just went on the road and we did a lot of really good things. We got points in four out of the five games.”
Babcock is a big believer in consistency, so the key to getting the Red Wings over the proverbial hump this season will be sticking to the plan.
“When you have done a lot of winning as a coach or a player you have some confidence that you know what should happen,” he said. “Instead of changing your plan and deviating, you tend to be steady on the rudder and you just keep going.”
He said he’s had conversations about just that with captain Nicklas Lidstrom and alternates Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg. All three have re-affirmed his belief.
“They have all said the same thing to me, ‘We’re not that far off Babs, let’s just keep going, keep going,’ ” Babcock said. “I think that’s real important because if they’re telling you this is no good, that is no good, this isn’t working, than I think you’ve got some problems. . .
Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 11/03/09 at 01:54 PM ET
“They have all said the same thing to me, ‘We’re not that far off Babs, let’s just keep going, keep going,’ “ Babcock said
Actually, Datsyuk said “We need more consistent”.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/03/09 at 02:04 PM ET
Datsyuk:“We need more consistent”. Then he made his point by asking Zetterman to call on his cell and doing the best James Brown impression ever (by a russian, that is).
Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 11/03/09 at 02:08 PM ET
Oh, and what about Kris Draper? Is the A on his shoulder just honorary?
Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 11/03/09 at 02:19 PM ET
Draper merece. Ele é um líder dentro e fora do gelo. Melhor único dólar aquisição de Detroit já feitos.
Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 11/03/09 at 03:14 PM ET
Draper merece. Ele é um líder dentro e fora do gelo. Melhor único dólar aquisição de Detroit já feitos.
Word.
Posted by Triple Deke Tyler from Lansing on 11/03/09 at 03:18 PM ET
Tyler…for someone I’ve never actually met, I feel like I already know you better than I should. We 19 share a strange kinship.
Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 11/03/09 at 03:23 PM ET
But you could also call the argument apagogical.
I’m going to slip that my date’s drink tonight.
We 19 share a strange kinship.
We can make it stranger with some time in the vestibule. Tyler will sing Latin hymns for you.
I’m introducing my German girl to Molson tonight; that should boost my stock.
Posted by Osrt on 11/03/09 at 03:34 PM ET
We can make it stranger with some time in the vestibule. Tyler will sing Latin hymns for you.
I’m introducing my German girl to Molson tonight; that should boost my stock.
Posted by Osrt on 11/03/09 at 03:34 PM ET
Make it a Triple X…or three.
Actually I wouldn’t recommend three Triple X’s in one game. They come in pints and that will seriously f**k you up no matter who you are…did that at the last game, felt like poop the entire next day at work.
...I did have four once, Game 2 against Anaheim, it ended with me throwing the plastic cup at a tv on the concourse during Crylyle’s post game presser, where after stealing one from the Wings, was still b!tching about the refs. The gf was not pleased…nor was security.
Anywhooo…I’ll be looking for you two at the game tonight. Like I told Tyler, I’ll be the guy in the Zata Winter Classic Jersey with the mysterious white “A” on the shoulder.
Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 11/03/09 at 03:41 PM ET
Draper merece. Ele é um líder dentro e fora do gelo. Melhor único dólar aquisição de Detroit já feitos.
I stared the monitor for about 12 minutes after that one. Awesome
Animal, did you gave up on the Zetterman quotes?
Posted by Guilherme from Brasil on 11/03/09 at 03:43 PM ET
LOUD NOISES.
Raf has the flu. Doug Janik is coming over from GR
Wait, what? Shee-it.
Time for my fourth pint, I think, then I’m moving on to the hemlock. God obviously hates the Wings, from now on I’m directing my prayers to some other deity. Ahura Mazda, are you there? It’s me, Andrew.
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 11/03/09 at 03:55 PM ET
Ahura Mazda, are you there? It’s me, Andrew.
Wow, Mazda’s have their own god? No wonder imports are taking over.
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 04:00 PM ET
Wow, Mazda’s have their own god?
His/Her devotees chant “zoom zoom”
When’s this game start anyway? I’m off work early and need something to bitch about.
Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 11/03/09 at 04:05 PM ET
Wow, Mazda’s have their own god?
His/Her devotees chant “zoom zoom”
Don’t forget to tip your waitress.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/03/09 at 04:10 PM ET
I’m off work early and need something to bitch about.
Obviously, you’re not married. 
Hope things are going well for you Nate. If there is another rendezvous this year might you attend? I enjoyed talking hockey with you last time.
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 04:13 PM ET
Anyone know if Ozzie is in goal tonight?
I thought he looked better in Calgary
and hope he can again be focused AND intense tonight.
For a win.
From the start.
For 60 minutes.
Without any momentary lapses.
Posted by stonehands-78 from the beginning ... a WingsFan, on 11/03/09 at 04:16 PM ET
Heh, not being married is what will allow me to make it to another A2Y gathering. I’m looking forward to it. We’d better start planning early again. Do we have a preferred opponent? And didn’t Chief say something about being around at some point this winter too?
Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 11/03/09 at 04:22 PM ET
For 60 minutes.
Another nickel in the pot please. At this rate you’ll be a rich man at no time.
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 04:24 PM ET
Do we have a preferred opponent? And didn’t Chief say something about being around at some point this winter too?
What we need here is a “social organizer” and it ain’t me. It’s all I can do to get myself anywhere, in a competent state.
Posted by calquake on 11/03/09 at 04:27 PM ET
Heh, not being married is what will allow me to make it to another A2Y gathering
If your wife says no to ya going to a Wings game… you married the wrong lady.
Anywho, let’s start looking at a game or 2 and see how many can make it. If a majority can pick a certain date or 2, I’ll make it work for me.
Game’s at 7EST, not sure if I’ll DVR it or just skip it.. baseball practice continues even though the season is finally over.
Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 11/03/09 at 04:28 PM ET
“social organizer”
I did it last time… nah-nah-nah-na-na-nah. 
Seriously, or at least 1/2 heartedly I’ll do it again if need be. That said, we’d need to start looking for a block of tickets SOONER than LATER. Finding 8-9+ seats together gets to be a PITA or ya pay higher price for a lesser dollar seat.
Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 11/03/09 at 04:31 PM ET
I’m introducing my German girl to Molson tonight; that should boost my stock.
I thought that said something else the first time.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 11/03/09 at 04:41 PM ET
Well, assuming only Friday/Saturdays again, and skipping ahead to January in order to miss the busy holiday season:
Sat 1/23 - LA
Fri 1/29 - Bubba
Sat 2/13 - OTT
Fri 3/5 - Bubba
Sat 3/13 - BUF
Fri 3/26 - MIN
Sat 4/3 - Bubba
Pretty limited choices there. Sunday 1/17 - CHI might also be an option. Currently scheduled for a 3pm game time. I’m good for weekdays as well, but I understand that might be a problem for you folks farther afield.
Chicago would be my preference if it can be done.
Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 11/03/09 at 04:43 PM ET
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Big Rig, JR and Raffi all bit by the flu bug and first game off a road trip…. hit the kool aid early tonight.
Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 11/03/09 at 11:26 AM ET