Some transplanted northerner? The truth is your attendace has fallen because most smart people have left that decimated, economically depressed, stink hole you call a city and I don’t blame them I actually would rather live in NC (I don’t) than live in Detroit and win the cup every year.

Posted by Cheapseats Bob from Economically sound USA on 09/09/07 at 05:04 PM ET

Man Bob.  That’s quite the run-on you’ve got going on there.  Impressive.  Stream of conciousness writing kicks ass. 

As for your comment, the phrase you attempted to quote was, “obnoxious transplanted northerner.” You left the “obnoxious” part out, and that made me sad.

I guess, since Detroit’s a decimated “stink” hole, the Wings should move?  Is that why the Nordiques left Quebec, or have you not followed hockey long enough to know why Denver got another crack at hockey after that city failed the first go-round?

Hey, stick around...with a name like “draft dodger” you and I will get along real well.  Also, when you have time, take a glance at the “about” section on the right.  There’s a note there just for you.

Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 09/09/07 at 05:45 PM ET

Wow, this is interesting.

As someone who has, in the past two weeks, lived within walking distance to North Carolina (and lived there for a year as well) and lived in Metro Detroit, I will offer my own unsolicited opinion on the matter.

North Carolina - Generally good people, once you get outside of Charlotte city limits. Raleigh is an absolutely BEAUTIFUL area. Durham is okay. Greensboro and Winston-Salem are like larger versions of Pontiac and Toledo. Economy is booming.

Detroit - Moved back after about seven years (four if you count Ann Arbor as part of Detroit) last week, and I am actually impressed at how nice it is compared to how I remembered it. The economy isn’t as bad as people think it is. The jobs lost have been due to the decline of the American automotive industry, but contrary to popular belief, there is more to Detroit than the automotive industry. There’s a hell of a lot more “stuff” here than there was when I remembered, and for an area that is supposed to be decaying due to a poor economy, there sure is a lot of development and renewal going on.

My particular hometown was a toilet when I left. There was no reason to go downtown, as there was NOTHING there. Now? A nice brewpub right at the main corner. A couple other bars. A couple cool little coffee shops. The downtown is actually a destination now, and I am actually pretty excited to live 50yds from so much fun stuff.

Preference - Right now, I am going to say Detroit. In a few weeks, perhaps the novelty will have worn off and I will be longing for Carolina winters. But the ability to go to an Indian or Arab or Asian grocery store (as well as Phillipino, Polish, Armenian, etc) or restaurant if I am in the mood is something that the Carolinas just don’t offer.

So Bob is DD from ITCS? Interesting.

No, Bob, the attendance didn’t drop because the intelligent people left. Many intelligent people have indeed left (I read some statistic about something like 70% of the new college graduates from Michigan taking jobs elsewhere), but those weren’t the people filling the Joe every night.

No, like everything else, it’s popularity. Detroit was never really deserving of the moniker “Hockeytown,” because Detroit never really gave a shit about any of their teams other than the Wings. The Wings were popular, and their popularity is why their tickets sold. The lockout came right around the ascent of the Pistons, and when the Tigers turned things around, that was it.

The economy has nothing to do with it, and neither does any sort of flight of intelligent people.

Posted by Thomas on 09/09/07 at 07:01 PM ET

I don’t have a problem with most of the sunbelt teams myself, with the exception of Miami and Nashville myself, which I see as questionable markets…

But I don’t think that the Canes or Thrashers are any less legitimate than the Wings, and, hey, the Canes won the Cup. 

The economic realities are inescapable around here.  The state lost 171,000 jobs between 2002 and 2007--not including this year, actually--and those jobs have been concentrated in the automotive industry, and in Southeastern Michigan.  Our State government is facing a shut-down in October because it’s $1.8 billion in the red, Michigan leads the nation in real estate foreclosures, several companies, including Pfizer and VW, have decided to close major facilities in Southeastern Michigan over the past year, and it’s not as if the automotive industry’s on the up-swing yet--there are tens of thousands of more job cuts to come.

It’s hard to justify going to a game, whether it’s a Tigers game, a Wings game, a Pistons game, or whatever, when you have to make the decision between dropping $200+ for one night of entertainment for a family of four and making sure you’ve got enough for groceries and/or the bills when you’re a line worker with your job in jeopardy. 

The irony of the situation is that Michiganders remain as fiercely loyal to our state as ever, and people are bending into pretzels to try and make things work while staying here in Michigan, despite our difficult economic times.  That’s just the truth. 

The Wings’ ticket issues are of course compounded by the organization’s poor attitude towards its fans, media, and their horrible PR department, but the “seat filler” tix and the fact that exhibition game ticket prices are being sold at less than full price are positive indications.

If somebody wants to get their rocks off saying, “F*** Detroit” because they can, I don’t particularly care, but the fact that they’re stereotyping my hometown strikes me as more than a little bit ironic and ever so slightly hypocritical.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/09/07 at 07:03 PM ET

Don’t forget the foreclosure rate.  The sub-prime mortgage mess has hit Michigan, Ohio, Florida, and California especially hard.  All the proverbial dominos have yet to fall on that one.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 09/09/07 at 07:17 PM ET

we have to contract all those southern teams because they don’t sell out–but it’s OK for Detroit to have issues, because they’re Detroit.

because, of course, there’s no difference between having 10 years of sell-outs and then a couple seasons where they have a few empty seats vs. never having any fan support since the day the team came to town.

both are the same.

wow.

Posted by Paul from Miami Beach on 09/09/07 at 07:31 PM ET

Guys, this one is a lose-lose.  Deep-seated hate (hey, the Acid Queen hates the Wings, I hate the Leafs, we all have teams we just can’t stand) and spitting venom, a contrarian who makes his living very thoughtfully saying the equivalent of “Nuh-nuh, you’re wrong!” (Thomas, still hug-deprived), and criticism of a city whose bashing is a phenomenon unto itself…

I don’t question the legitimacy of the fans of any NHL team, whether I love ‘em, have no real feelings toward them, or hate ‘em, people who love hockey love hockey…

But you start bashing not only my team, but also the place of my birth--within the same sentence, attempting to attribute the qualities of one “bash-ee” to the other “bash-ee"--and that crosses into Woody Paige territory...and we all know where that leads.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/09/07 at 10:28 PM ET

Wow, and you talk about me jumping to conclusions, Chief?

All 2002 and the SabresFan-like assery of Wings Nation did was fan the flames of a hatred that’s been extant since I was 10. Trust me--were it not for that, I’d have long since ceased to care about Detroit (even though a good chunk of my maternal relatives live in the Detroit/Windsor Metro Area).

As for the economy?  Spare me, kids. When the Hurricanes’ attendance flagged as the dot-bomb bust continued apace in the early part of this century and a lot of people could no longer justify paying good money to watch a team that wasn’t even trying to win (and whose coach made excuse after excuse for same), we got deluged with garbage from Yanqui toolbags that decided that bad ticket sales = no fan interest.

So--again--if the economy excuse isn’t good enough for us, then it’s sure as hell not good enough for anyone else.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/09/07 at 11:28 PM ET

Oh, and as far as Bubba goes?  Yes I like them--but the reason is intensely personal, not intensely geographical.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/09/07 at 11:30 PM ET

Wow, you got stupid arguments from some jackass on a blog?  Never heard of that before.  That totally justifies ignoring logic now.

I don’t understand the “it just can’t be economics” argument.  The Wings have 41 sell outs during the regular season.  The playoffs come along and suddenly the streak ends.  Now, I think it’s entirely feasible that it had something to do with the jump in ticket prices.  But I would be wrong.  See, it has to be because Wings fans are a bunch of band wagoners, but band wagoners from an evil dimension where you jump off the wagon when the play offs start.  This makes a lot more sense than the crazy notion that people will buy less of something when it becomes more expensive.

Posted by ColBerdan from San Jose on 09/10/07 at 12:21 AM ET

See, it has to be because Wings fans are a bunch of band wagoners,

99% of EVERY team’s fans are bandwagoners. The problem here is that you seem to think that because you’re a Wings fan, that that somehow means that Wings fans aren’t bandwagoners.

Detroit is a front-running sports town, just like everywhere else. All your elitist drivel isn’t going to change that.

Posted by Thomas on 09/10/07 at 12:47 AM ET

Oh, it’s getting good now...Thomas accusing all sports fans of being bandwagoners, while defending Detroit and claiming that there’s “elitism” going on...Yeesh.  I may as well bring out my existential sock puppets...Der Ubermensch ist Argyle!

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/10/07 at 01:18 AM ET

Yeah Thomas, I live under the impression that every Wings fan is 100% legitimate and there are no band wagoners.  You’ve just got me nailed today.

Posted by ColBerdan from San Jose on 09/10/07 at 01:49 AM ET

Wow, you got stupid arguments from some jackass on a blog?

Yes--it was http://standinginfrontofmeatthegrocerystoreandotherrealworldplaces.com/

Because, of course, you only find jackasses and idiots online. Never offline.

I don’t understand the “it just can’t be economics” argument.

That’s because you’re apparently too thick to understand the “I refuse to accept the double-standard” argument.

And Thomas?  Shut up. Even I find you annoying, and I hate Detroit and all its teams even more than you do.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/10/07 at 08:09 AM ET

Thomas:  Nice post about Detroit!  I did not think you had it in you.

I am a Wings’ fan, but I very much like the Predators.  Barry Trotz is a good man and a good coach; their managment built a very good team (before ownership made them dismantle it); and Steve Sullivan is a classic fire-brand of a hockey player.  Just like Pittsburgh, I really hope that team can stay in Nashville, for the sake of each of the 13,000 fans.  How would I feel if Detroit lost the Wings?

Regarding the Wings, they are a wonderful team.  But if they started losing on a regular basis, I think the marginal fan would not want to watch a loser.

The Wolverines should teach us humility, and to not take winning for granted.  We must celebrate the long-term excellence of the Wings (and Wolverines), but never, ever get cocky about it.

Posted by w2j2 on 09/10/07 at 08:10 AM ET

Two things.

1. Regarding Detroit’s economy and the idea that it is the reason that Wings tickets don’t sell:

Heh.

2. You know, I set aside Acid Queen’s ignorant Detroit-bashing because she had a point with regard to the elitist attitude that Detroiters/Canadians had toward Southern teams. Not exactly an original viewpoint, but one with merit.

But to attack me needlessly like that, when I have never uttered a cross word in her direction? Go *#$%@& yourself. I will post what I want, when I want, and you don’t have a word to say about it. You are an ignorant, angry, bitter little troll. I read your blog a little when I was moving to NC and quickly lost interest because your writing is awful, your subject matter is boring, and your attitude is nasty for no apparent reason. I guess that’s just what life is like for a lonely puck bunny, eh?

When I found out I would be relocating to the Carolinas, I was excited to take in a few Canes games. And given how much I like Karmanos and get a kick out of the blatant anti-Red Wings attitude the team has, I thought I would really enjoy having the Canes as my #2 favorite team.

Then I met their fans.

Raleigh is actually a booming area when it comes to youth hockey. But I have never met a single, solitary Canes fan that I could even remotely stand. I figured that a team with so little tradition and such a relatively new fan base would be eager to accept whatever new fans they could get (because 99% of Canes fans are new to the team themselves). Heh, wrong.

AQ is just another example of that.

By the way, you don’t know me. You don’t know anything about me, and you certainly don’t know which Detroit teams I dislike, why I dislike them, or to what extent I dislike them. And you sure as hell don’t know the first thing about this city, its economy, or the people here. If you want to bash my hometown, you’re not going to like the outcome, and I think the rest of the Detroiters here have shown you that as well.

Posted by Thomas on 09/10/07 at 10:32 AM ET

Thomas accusing all sports fans of being bandwagoners,

I didn’t accuse all sports fans of being bandwagoners. I accused all teams’ fanbases of being bandwagoners.

Not a difficult concept, if you think about it.

There are some big time Lions fans who stick with their team through thick and thin. I am one of them. But if and when the Lions put it together and make a Super Bowl run (I know, this is an abstract concept, but play along), there are going to be a hell of a lot more “Lions fans” than there are now. Suddenly, every grocery-getting SUV from Saginaw to Temperance is going to have a Detroit Lions magnet on it. You won’t be able to afford a ticket even if you can find one.

Lean years show you who the real fans are.

while defending Detroit

Why wouldn’t I? As someone who was born and raised in Detroit, I have the right to bash it if I choose (which we all do), while still not taking kindly to it when others do.

and claiming that there’s “elitism” going on

There is. There is anti-Southern elitism/hockey snobbery going on from the Detroiters. And Acid Queen has an elitist attitude herself.

Posted by Thomas on 09/10/07 at 10:47 AM ET

Not a difficult concept, if you think about it.

More delicious, gooey irony…

Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog

Not very difficult at all. For most.

Posted by TeamDub from Toledo on 09/10/07 at 11:09 AM ET

I never thought I would say this but...well said Thomas.

Posted by Josh from Mich on 09/10/07 at 11:23 AM ET

i live 45 minutes from the arena where the predators play hockey.  i was born 45 minutes away from where the red wings play hockey.  i’ve been a wings fanatic (not a fan) since i can remember, through the good years and bad (like you with the lions, thomas).  i moved to tennessee in 1993 when hockey wasn’t even an afterthought here.  then in 1998 when the predators started play, i too tried to be a fan of theirs, since i love hockey and had a team i could watch live.  but like thomas said, “then i met their fans”.  these people to this very second are still the most idiotic people i have ever heard when it comes to hockey.  also, you want to talk about front-runners, why the hell do you think there was a threat of them leaving nashville, it wasn’t just the “lack of corporate support” that everyone down here was talking about.  the novelty wore off after the first few seasons, and no one, in large part, cared.  even now, with this ticket drive that’s going on down here, the attendance is supposedly going to go up, both on the corporate end and from your everyday joe, but i guarantee you that the novelty will wear off again.  as much as i was looking forward to getting a team here, i am also convinced as much that this team is not long from leaving the area, and no one will really miss it.  GO WINGS!!!!!  from a wings fan living in hockey hell.

Posted by torango66 from Columbia, TN on 09/10/07 at 05:25 PM ET

Ahh Thomas, how nice to see you too. If you think so ill of me, then why pray tell did you bother commenting in my blog?

Oh wait, I get the sudden nastiness toward me (wow, being called a puckbunny. How original--tell me, does throwing that around make you feel like more of a man?) and my town--you just can’t deal with getting smacked down for being an ign’ant *#$%@&.

Right.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/11/07 at 03:49 AM ET

Sorry to derail this polite conversation but I got this in the mail today.
It is the Phoenix Coyotes “group rates” mailer. They actually have (for the second year in a row) different prices for the Red Wing games. I’m a long time Red Wing fan (Dead Things days), born and raised in SE Michigan, so I like to see the Wings come to my town.
I also like to support the Coyotes, and go watch as many games as I can. I’d like to call them my #2 team, but this just gets me angry. They raise the prices for ONE team in the league.
I don’t think I’ll be going to any games anymore.
Thanks Coyotes

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l149/unlimitedab/funny stuff/coyotesprices.jpg

Posted by Aaron in PHX from The Birdy South on 09/11/07 at 07:03 PM ET

Apparently, Little Brownshirt Willie has decided to delete my comment, AQ.

Apparently, you are welcome to attack me, but if I retaliate, then I get threatened with a ban.

Suffice it to say, telling me to “shut up” isn’t being “smacked down.” You lack the hockey knowledge to go toe-to-toe with anyone here, much less myself. But you’re welcome to give it a shot.

Beyond that, go crawl back into your hole. We don’t need your kind of ignorant nastiness around here. Or stay. I honestly couldn’t care less.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 03:15 AM ET

It’s not brown Thom. It’s khaki.  And I have no intention of banning you.  Your standard Dive fan anti-Wing bitterness has been good reading during the summer months.

While I won’t ban you, I will delete comments that include intensely personal attacks, unless of course those attacks are levied by me and include calling you a transvestite.  Those can stay. 

Hypocritical? On the surface, sure.  But anyone who takes issue with it didn’t read what I deleted.  Your comments crossed the line and the decision wasn’t difficult.  That irritated you?  Good.  I may just delete a few more of yours for the pure enjoyment of pissing off a Dive fan.

Any readers who want a further explanation, drop me an email. I have no problem discussing this.

Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 09/12/07 at 03:49 AM ET

Sig heil,

There is no bitterness toward the Wings on my part. What’s there to be bitter about? The team is being run into the ground by an idiot GM. The fans are amongst the dumbest of any NHL team. The Avs own the lifetime playoff series between the two teams. The Wings are on the decline, while my team just got finished reloading in the offseason, and has one of the five best prospect pools in all of hockey. Nothing else is of any consequence.

While I won’t ban you, I will delete comments that include intensely personal attacks,

...unless they come from people attacking me…

You forgot that little morsel, mein fuhrer.

Hypocritical? On the surface, sure.

Nope, just plain hypocritical. There’s no “surface” and “beneath.” You throw juvenile attacks at me, then throw the book at me when I volley some idiot’s attacks back at her.

It’s as simple as that. Black and white. Spin all you want. You’re a hypocrite, a liar, and nothing more.

I lost a ton of respect for you tonight.

Your comments crossed the line

...says the guy who refers to his readers as “transvestites,” then threatens to delete their comments and ban them…

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 03:59 AM ET

Great stuff Thom.  And I don’t refer to my “readers” as transvestites. Just you. Don’t be insulted. Embrace it.

You “lost a ton of respect for me tonight?”

I’ll try to shuffle through the day with that weighing on my mind.

Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 09/12/07 at 04:10 AM ET

Great stuff Thom.  And I don’t refer to my “readers” as transvestites. Just you. Don’t be insulted. Embrace it.

Well, coming from a pederast like yourself, I guess it doesn’t mean much.

You “lost a ton of respect for me tonight?”

I’ll try to shuffle through the day with that weighing on my mind.

Hey, that’s cool. Doesn’t matter if you care or not. I’m the one who can go to bed tonight knowing that I am not a hypocrite.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 04:17 AM ET

Those of us who were lucky enough to be wandering about when the comments were posted…

I’m all about the evolution of the language, free speech, etc. etc., but there’s a line where even “hate” speech crosses the line toward “bats*** insane” speech (takes one to know one ), and there’s a delete button for that. 

Thank you for doing what you did, Bill.  It was more than appropriate, and downright merciful toward the so-called offended party (is he anything other than offended?) as far as I’m concerned.

There are some things even hugs can’t fix, and those comments were completely unhuggable.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/12/07 at 04:18 AM ET

I replaced the “bunny” in “puckbunny” with a couple of the other words that hockey players use to refer to the girls who chase after hockey players, and referred to her by the term used to describe a female dog in heat.

Just to clear that up for those who didn’t get to read it before Brownshirt Willie decided to pull his little power trip.

You two are making it out like I told my favorite version of The Aristocrats, and that simply isn’t the case. The idiot took shots at me, so I took shots at her. Certainly nothing worse than Brownshirt Willie referring to me as a transvestite.

If I were a Wings fan, my comments wouldn’t have been deleted. Because our pederast friend Bill doesn’t like my views on his favorite hockey team, he decided to be a dick.

As he loves to point out, it’s his blog and he can do whatever floats his boat.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 04:27 AM ET

Get ready for the nastiest thing I know how to say, THoams.

I’m now going to make a gesture with my hands.

I’m going to place my left index finger and thumb outward, and will curl my other fingers to form a “\/,” and I’m following that up by repeating with the right hand, making a “\/.”

Now I’m gonna combine them: \/\/, as in “Whatever.”

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/12/07 at 04:37 AM ET

Um, okay.

And if everyone here acted the way you do, we wouldn’t have a problem. You don’t see me taking shots at you, do you?

You reap what you sow.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 04:53 AM ET

And so we see why Thomas is hated even by other Avs fans--and until I told you that you were annoying, Tommy-boy, you had no problem at all with Hurricanes fans. Go on, admit it--the truth isn’t as painful as you think it is.

Too bad you deleted his original comment, Chief (though I did get it in my inbox anyway); it’s always funny to see seeing some toolbag get his underoos in a wad because a woman told him he was annoying.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/12/07 at 07:18 AM ET

Somehow it’s ok with you that other cities have teams and not Nashville? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Why are you so intent on taking away my team? It’s the same stupidity that AcidQueen is pissed off about. The Nashville fans love their team passionately and hockey is continuously growing in popularity here. Quite honestly, you’re full of it and I don’t think I need to say what “it” is.

Posted by predatorsfan from Nashville, TN on 09/12/07 at 04:36 PM ET

And so we see why Thomas is hated even by other Avs fans

I’m hated by Avs fans because I have an intense dislike for Joe Sakic, and I refer to them as pom-pon waving morons when they wave their pom-pons.

and until I told you that you were annoying, Tommy-boy, you had no problem at all with Hurricanes fans.

Actually, I did. And it’s all out there in the open - easily proven. Posted my dislike for them on three different groups well before I ran into your pathetic behind.

it’s always funny to see seeing some toolbag get his underoos in a wad because a woman told him he was annoying.

You’re not a woman until post-op, bud.

But yes, I would like fries with that.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 04:41 PM ET

And now you’ve gone from misogyny to homophobia.

Classy.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/12/07 at 04:52 PM ET

I assume you’re talking to me.

Hilarious. I have posted nothing misogynous nor homophobic.

I never said you were a homosexual. I implied that you were a pre-op transsexual, which you have openly admitted on your blog. Whether or not you are a homosexual is none of my business, and I have no problems with it either way.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 05:17 PM ET

I implied that you were a pre-op
transsexual, which you have openly admitted on your blog.

I have?  This is news to me--kindly provide me with a link.

What’s next--going to drop right down to racism?  C’mon, you know you want to go for the trifecta.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/12/07 at 05:19 PM ET

I implied that you were a pre-op
transsexual, which you have openly admitted on your blog.

I have?  This is news to me--kindly provide me with a link.

Hey, if you’re going to make shit up, I am going to as well.

You call me a transvestite (which would be “homophobic” according to your ignorant argument...and that would make you a hypocrite), I call you a transsexual.

You want to sling mud, I will sling it right back at you. You want to act like an adult? We can do that to. It’s up to you.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 05:30 PM ET

Generally speaking, fan =/= (does not equal) “Oh, I support this team, but I like to tell their fans that their most significant player is an ass, and that said fans are sheep.”

If that’s the definition of fandom, I must be a Leafs fan, because I think their media’s full of poop, that the team is vastly overrated, I don’t think fondly of their fan base, nor their belief that their team is God’s Gift to Hockey.

When someone derives their online enjoyment from taking oppositional and antagonistic positions, whether it’s regarding the disdain one holds for the “home town” team or the belief that discrediting and “dissing” another’s fan base constitutes fandom, and when one’s substance consists of long-winded, holier-than-thou contrarianism, regardless of whether one exhibits a high level of intelligence in doing so or whether one simply says, “Yew iz teh sucx!”, one cannot dispute the fact that Philistinism personified is Philistinism personified. 

The belief that the anonymity of the internet allows one to conduct themselves in a way that real-life consequences is usually indicative of some sort of deep-seated dysfunction and/or disturbance whose manifestation belies deep-seated frustrations with an inability to express oneself effectively in daily life, and may indicate an acute sense of unimportance, or something worse.  The Miltons of the world set fire to the building when the Lumbergs of the world steal their staplers, and the Miltons of the world tend to bare their fangs on message boards and blogs. 

It is indeed an interesting behavioural pattern to discuss and study in theoretical terms, but the actual occurence thereof is often unpalatable, and as such, the best course of action is to explain the situation and then suggest disengagement as the most appropriate response.  As previously stated, and given the theories surrounding this relatively common occurence, I re-state my stance on the subject: “Whatever.”

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/12/07 at 07:07 PM ET

You want to sling mud, I will sling it right back at you.

You’re the one who started down this road, when you responded to my telling you that you were annoying with an over-the-top misogynist screed combined with a sudden loathing for a fanbase that you have, heretofore, hardly spoken of--though if the way you’ve addressed me is any indication, I can only imagine what you said to other Hurricanes fans to incur their bile.

Or have you forgotten that?

I think I’m done here--you’ve shown what a waste of skin and air you are, and frankly I have better things to do with my time than deal with a whiny man-child with an obvious case of small E-penis syndrome.

Seeya.

Posted by The Acid Queen from Raleigh, NC on 09/12/07 at 07:13 PM ET

Generally speaking, fan =/= (does not equal) “Oh, I support this team, but I like to tell their fans that their most significant player is an ass, and that said fans are sheep.”

If I defined my fandom by those measures, then you’d have a point. I don’t, so you don’t.

I love my team, but I am a pragmatist. If there’s a glaring issue with my team, I am going to point it out. If it bothers other fans of my team, tough shit.

I could either say something that isn’t true and appease other fans of my team, or I could tell the truth and be myself. I choose the latter. Simple as that

If that’s the definition of fandom, I must be a Leafs fan, because I think their media’s full of poop, that the team is vastly overrated, I don’t think fondly of their fan base, nor their belief that their team is God’s Gift to Hockey.

Change “Leafs” to “Wings” and add that the fans of that team tend to be arrogant, ignorant shitbags, and perhaps you’ll understand why I’m not a Wings fan.

When someone derives their online enjoyment from taking oppositional and antagonistic positions,

It’s not a matter of deriving enjoyment from it. It’s a matter of me seeing things as they are, not how I want them to be, and my need to tell the truth.

If someone says that Ken Holland is one of the best GMs in hockey, and I know that not to be true, and I have a whole laundry list of evidence to that effect, I am going to post it. It’s not a matter of enjoyment, it’s a matter of accuracy.

or the belief that discrediting and “dissing” another’s fan base constitutes fandom,

I don’t believe that at all. Insulting Wings fans isn’t a component of being an Avs fan, just like mindlessly insulting Avs fans isn’t a component of being a Wings fan. If I believed that, then I would hold Avs fans to be superior to Wings fans - and that is not the case. They are both bad, in general.

The belief that the anonymity of the internet allows one to conduct themselves in a way that real-life consequences is usually indicative of some sort of deep-seated dysfunction

Ah, I was wondering when someone would get into the whole amateur psychologist bullshit.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no anonymity of the internet for me. I post using my real name, and my address, phone number, and pretty much all other personal information have been posted numerous times by people who could not stand the fact that their argument was destroyed when they had the misfortune of tangling with me. I hide nothing.

And there is no dysfunction. I enjoy debating hockey. As you have seen, I have no problems separating myself from my team or myself from my arguments. I also have no problem slinging mud back at people who sling it at me. There’s nothing dysfunctional there, it’s not some deep rooted psychological issue. I enjoy debating. Plain and simple. I am damn good at it.

And as anyone who knows me will attest, my online persona is exactly how I am in person.

and/or disturbance whose manifestation belies deep-seated frustrations with an inability to express oneself effectively in daily life, and may indicate an acute sense of unimportance, or something worse.

Nope. Sorry. I have no problem expressing myself in person. I have a very happy, fulfilling life. No more frustrations than the average person. Actually, I happen to have lived a pretty lucky life, all things considered. God has blessed me mightily.

The Miltons of the world set fire to the building when the Lumbergs of the world steal their staplers, and the Miltons of the world tend to bare their fangs on message boards and blogs.

Interesting that you bring up the whole Office Space thing. My wife saw that movie for the first time about two years after we started dating, and she was dumbfounded as to how much I resembled Peter Gibbons.

As I said before, I have a naturally harsh tone, and I don’t mince words. But I am not the least bit angry or upset. This is an enjoyable, calming experience for me. I am usually smiling the entire time I argue with someone. If you’re not that way, I am sorry. But that’s not my issue.

It is indeed an interesting behavioural pattern to discuss and study in theoretical terms, but the actual occurence thereof is often unpalatable, and as such, the best course of action is to explain the situation and then suggest disengagement as the most appropriate response.  As previously stated, and given the theories surrounding this relatively common occurence, I re-state my stance on the subject: “Whatever.”

That’s fine. If disengagement (also known as “quitting") is how you like to deal with tough situations, that’s your deal.

However, as I said before, the easiest way to deal with me is to show me respect. You show me respect, and you’ll get it in return. You’ve done that with me in the past, and as I said before, you haven’t been insulted.

Insult me, as Puckbunny and Brownshirt Willie have, and you get that in return. Simple as that.

They seem to want to be able to insult me and have me just back down. That’s just not going to happen.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 08:38 PM ET

You want to sling mud, I will sling it right back at you.

You’re the one who started down this road, when you responded to my telling you that you were annoying with an over-the-top misogynist screed

That’s pretty funny. You addressed your own concern right there. You insulted me, then blame me when I insulted you in response.

What, exactly, did you expect when you insulted me? You thought I was going to back down to some faceless, ignorant, uneducated troll like yourself? You thought wrong, obviously.

though if the way you’ve addressed me is any indication, I can only imagine what you said to other Hurricanes fans to incur their bile.

Actually, I can tell you exactly what it was.

05-06 season, I posted early on that the Canes were moving the puck well, and that if they continued to move the puck as well as they were, that their relatively hot start to the season would continue, and that they could end up making sparks in the postseason. One of your fellow simpleton fans lit into me, saying that the Canes were this and that, that Tverdovsky was garbage, etc. Basically, I praised the Canes and they were pissed that I didn’t praise what they thought the team’s strength was. One of the guys who lit into me was chastised by one of the others, who told him that he should welcome me as a fan, because there weren’t too many others interested in contributing to that forum. He didn’t back down, and in true hockey snob fashion, basically told me to pick a different team. I stopped going to that forum, and when I moved to the Carolinas and met the fans, it didn’t take much for me to back away from the team.

So, in short, the “bile” was worked up by my praising the Canes’ puck movement. It’s all there on the internet, all the posts. Go find it if you’re interested. I posted as Thomas, as I always do.

I think I’m done here--you’ve shown what a waste of skin and air you are, and frankly I have better things to do with my time than deal with a whiny man-child with an obvious case of small E-penis syndrome.

In other words, you couldn’t beat me, so you’re quitting. Cool. Seeya.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 08:47 PM ET

I don’t see any point in insulting you, Thomas.  Baseless insults are pretty much useless.

I take issue with the harshness with which you approach discussion.  I’m well aware of the fact that you don’t really care what other people think, but approaching just about any topic with a willingness to suggest that not only are your assertions ironclad, but that anyone who disagrees with you can be lumped amongst the sheep and “shit-bags”...Are there only people who agree with you, who are willing to be enlightened by you, and then assholes and shitbags? 

That’s generally not a world-view that lends itself to amicable discussion, and if pissing off people and witnessing arguments blossom when you weigh in is fine for you, well, that’s fine for you, but there are people who don’t parituclarly enjoy making a comment and then having some random person attempt, in disagreeing, to rip them a new one. 

After a while, the shock value wears off, and others may view that approach as nothing more than a caricature or a “schtick.”

The decision not to “play well with others” is a personal one, and it doesn’t define somebody as anything--a jerk, a loser, a whatever--but to expect anything less than a negative response when harsh assertions are observed to be absolutism and personal insults is just unrealistic. 

People are passionate about things like sports, and if, in the course of a normal conversation about their sports team, they disagree with you, and your version of common parlance is to give them a very detailed and impassioned explanation as to why they’re mindless, misguided, worthless lemmings following a demented sheepherder off a cliff…

We’re talking about sports fandom, not advanced philosophical discussion as to whether war is just, social welfare programs are good or present a real and imminent threat to democracy, in a specific instance, whether the return of totalitarianism in Russia under Vladimir Putin’s reign not only endangers the social and personal freedoms of Russian citizens and the lives of dissidents like the messily-assassinated Alexander Litvinenko, but also could be a portent to a new cold war, if not a “hot” war should Putin increase his ties to Iran…

This is sports, and the beauty of sports is that, regardless of whether I think someone’s a complete and total moron for following a team that I see as worth hating, none of that matters when the puck drops, because history is written on the ice, and that is what we talk about.

There are certainly discussions related to sports that merit the intensity and vigour of social or political discussion, but when the result thereof includes a figurative body count, I just don’t see the point of it.  It becomes what this long-winded response has become--a waste of time and energy--and if you’ve got the energy to spare, that’s one thing, but other people don’t need to expect that their simplest assertions will be assailed with the fury of a thousand burning suns.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/13/07 at 01:48 AM ET

Are there only people who agree with you, who are willing to be enlightened by you, and then assholes and shitbags?

There are the above, and then those who can support their opinion with something resembling logic.

That said, for every one person who can support their opinion with something resembling logic, there are about sixteen hundred morons and shitbags.

but there are people who don’t parituclarly enjoy making a comment and then having some random person attempt, in disagreeing, to rip them a new one.

I am not interested in ripping a person a new one unless they have attempted to do that to me. And if someone posts with a passive tone, even if they are wrong, I usually leave it alone. But when someone posts with an authoritative tone, and they are dead wrong, and I feel like responding, I am going to respond and point out just what they have said that is wrong.

Usually, this leads to the shitbag getting pissed at me for poking holes in his argument large enough to drive an 18 wheeler through, but that’s their issue, not mine. I attack arguments, not people. When people attack me, I volley. Simple as that.

This is sports, and the beauty of sports is that, regardless of whether I think someone’s a complete and total moron for following a team that I see as worth hating,

Wow, that’s interesting. So you see different teams as being more or less worth liking than another?

I mean, I love the Avs, but I don’t see the Avs as being more worth liking than, say, the Islanders. And I don’t see the Wings as more worth hating than, say, the Kings.

Then again, I am a Lions fan. I followed the Nordiques when they were awful. I am a Michigan alum and fan who has watched both games this season. I guess if I can see those teams as worth following, perhaps I am not the best person to be trying to understand the concept of one team being worth liking or hating more than others.

There are certainly discussions related to sports that merit the intensity and vigour of social or political discussion, but when the result thereof includes a figurative body count, I just don’t see the point of it.

Enh, I don’t see the point in a blog writer referring to one of their readers as a “transvestite.” I don’t see the point in one poster personally attacking another poster who hadn’t so much as uttered a word (cross or otherwise) in their direction.

I don’t see any difference between arguing about politics and arguing about hockey. We don’t have the ability to change the outcome of either. Both are essentially mere games, and I find hockey a lot more interesting and a lot less frustrating.

Regardless, I don’t see the point in attacking someone personally because they have a different opinion than you do. I don’t see a problem in stereotyping a group (as Little Willie likes to do with Avs fans, I do with Wings and Avs fans, etc), but when you make it a personal attack on someone specific, there’s no call for that.

But I am not losing sleep over any of it.

It becomes what this long-winded response has become--a waste of time and energy-

This is ALL a waste of time and energy. All of us could be doing better things with our time than bullshitting with each other on a forum.

We do this because we find it enjoyable. If you’re reading Little Willie’s blog, you know full well going into it that he’s an *#$%@& and that the people who enjoy his takes are probably going to either be assholes themselves (that’s why I’m here...I started reading his blog because I got a kick out of the way he enjoyed the Wings, and I saw a lot of myself in him...), or at least are not going to flip out in shock when they see an *#$%@& comment.

But whatever. I am not interested in discussing myself. I am sick and damned tired of being the center of attention. If I wanted that, I would post on usenet, where there is an entire group centered around me.

Posted by Thomas on 09/13/07 at 03:21 AM ET