If Holland were Pierre Lacroix, he’d build up the hype around Kronwall and then deal him to some unsuspecting boob, get a big return, AND still have the superior (not to mention cheaper) player in Sopel.

As it stands, he will probably sign Sopel and sit him in the press box. Because we all know that Detroit’s biggest concern is more depth on defense, not, oh, I don’t know, a 2nd line.

Posted by Thomas on 09/10/07 at 10:15 AM ET

If Holland were Pierre Lacroix, he’d blow the picks terribly, set his franchise back two seasons with bad trades, and then skip out of his job before the bill for his poor management came due.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/10/07 at 10:31 AM ET

Actually Thom, if Ken Holland were Pierre LaCroix he’d shove about 16 donuts down his throat, sign Sopel, win a Cup with him and retire his jersey.

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 09/10/07 at 10:43 AM ET

HockeyinHD, you could learn a lot from Bill’s response.

Bill, you forgot that he would un-retire Sawchuk and Abel’s numbers and let Lilja and Ellis wear them.

Posted by Thomas on 09/10/07 at 10:56 AM ET

So why hasn’t Sopel been signed somewhere yet?  Money?  He made 2.4 mil last year, not so excessive given the monies thrown at defense lately.  Is he poison in the room?  Why would Vancouver have wanted him back?  So what gives?

And lots of talk and worry about the Wings losing their entire 2nd line.  But two-thirds of that particular “entire 2nd line” weren’t even on the team until the trade deadline.  And how’d they perform?  Bertuzzi: Regular season, 8 games, 2-2-4 +3; Playoffs: 16 games, 3-4-7 -2.  Calder: Regular season, 19 games, 5-9-14 +6; Playoffs, 13 games, 0-1-1 +1.  All in all, glimpses of good play, but nothing consistently stellar. 

Would it be a more realistic picture to say that the Wings “lost” only Lang from the 2nd line?  And we all have our opinions about Lang already…

So why not take some time early on and find out what some of the kids can bring to the table?  I tend to favor the kids and the underdogs with a nonrational emotionalism (hmmm… probably redundant there), but I don’t see it costing the Wings an entire season to first see what they have.

Posted by BobTheZee on 09/10/07 at 01:53 PM ET

Tom, you could learn a lot from -insert name of any other poster on the internet here-.

I can only imagine your squeals of glee were the Wings to have missed the playoffs like the Avs did, or be working on a 3 year streak of not winning the division or a 4 year streak of not getting out of the second round.

Any one of those three and you’d be capering around decrying Holland’s stupidity.  Heck, you do it anyway… but at least in any of those cases you’d at least have a smidgeon of reality to support your opinion.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/10/07 at 02:59 PM ET

Heh, yep, keep telling yourself that Holland is doing a good job. You’re going to be absolutely blindsided when the team skids out, despite the fact that I have been telling you so all along.

You are exactly why I refer to Wings fans as morons. Grade A example. Not a modicum (look it up) of hockey sense in your dense skull.

Posted by Thomas on 09/10/07 at 04:00 PM ET

You have to admit Thomas, that most of hockey “experts” have been predicting that kind of downfall for the Wings since the last Cup.

It never happened yet.

I think Holland is doing a great job, and he got the numbers speaking for him.

I kinda expected the Wings to be less good too, and I love them, but they always exceed expectations.

I think they’re gonna be a great team as long as they have Lidstrom-Datsyuk-Zetterberg in good shape.

Posted by Luc on 09/11/07 at 06:12 PM ET

You have to admit Thomas, that most of hockey “experts” have been predicting that kind of downfall for the Wings since the last Cup.

It never happened yet.

Sure it has. They haven’t fallen off the face of the Earth, but the team has declined considerably.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 03:10 AM ET

How have they declined exactly…..?

They went to the semi-finals last year, finished tied for first position in the regular season…that’s not a decline…

Posted by Luc on 09/12/07 at 09:29 PM ET

It is when you consider that the division has grown a lot weaker, the team has lost a load of depth (they don’t even have a 2nd line anymore…they used to be able to roll four lines), and the system is utterly devoid of prospects capable of playing a significant role (other than Kindl).

Holland was born on 3rd base, and you guys act like he’s a power hitter.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 09:35 PM ET

Division weakness doesn’t have anything to do with getting to the semi-finals - argue that division weakness inflates point totals, sure, but the fact that we beat two, and nearly a third, big, violent, thuggy team that was supposed to trash us, that’s a more accurate barometer of our team’s dynamic talent.

We don’t have a second line? Which one fails to be a second line? The Hudler-Zetterberg-Samuelsson line? The Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom line? Or is it the Cleary-Filppula-Draper line? All this assuming Grigorenko doesn’t do squat. You’re right, we used to have a fourth line of Luc Robitaille, Tomas Holmstrom, and Igor Larionov, but we also had an $80M payroll.

Holland has made some pretty good decisions, I’d say. Re-signing Hasek the first time took balls, and paid off huge. He’s still only paying Hank 2.5M a year, I’d say he’s getting a good value there. Locking up Datsyuk was a good move. Cleary and Samuelsson were FA steals. Cleary is still playing for peanuts. Zetterberg, Dastyuk, Holmstrom, all late, late, superlate, like, superhero late draft picks.

Prospects incapable of playing a significant role? Jonathon Ericsson? Kyle Quincey was very solid in the playoffs, far more than could be expected of a green rookie. How about Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader, who have performed big time at the championship level of their respective leagues? Emmerton and Mursak? Howard? Daniel Larsson who some are comparing to Henrik Lundqvist?

I’d say Holland does pretty well. To top it all, every one and his mother can see this Wings roster can win this division, and Holland *still* has a ton of cap space to play with at the deadline. He has the space to literally get anyone at the deadline. He could acquire three or four major pieces with the money he’s got left.

If drafting well, singing good-value free agents, locking up core players, and managing the cap is grounds for being a shitty GM I’d like to know what your criteria are. And, out of curiosity, since you foresee the Wings’ downfall, I’m interested to know how you see it playing out. i.e., what contracts will we regret, where do we lack depth, what mistakes can’t be undone, etc.

Posted by Pete K from Grand Rapids, MI on 09/12/07 at 11:09 PM ET

Division weakness doesn’t have anything to do with getting to the semi-finals - argue that division weakness inflates point totals, sure, but the fact that we beat two, and nearly a third, big, violent, thuggy team that was supposed to trash us, that’s a more accurate barometer of our team’s dynamic talent.

1. Divisional weakness gave you home ice, when you wouldn’t have gotten that in any other division.

2. The Wings beat two teams that had the Wings beat, then choked the series away. Those aren’t wins to be celebrated.

We don’t have a second line?

Nope.

Which one fails to be a second line?

Whatever second line you want to contrive.

The Hudler-Zetterberg-Samuelsson line?

That’s not a line that has seen any sort of significant ice time together, but I will humor you.

If Hudler-Zetterberg-Samuelsson is your second line, then that line is not at all effective, and your first line becomes ineffective as well by pairing Datsyuk with two players who are incapable of playing on a first line.

The Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom line?

See above.

Or is it the Cleary-Filppula-Draper line?

That is most definitely not an NHL-caliber 2nd line. That would be a good 3rd line, but if that were your second line, you’d be ROYALLY screwed.

All this assuming Grigorenko doesn’t do squat.

A very safe assumption.

Holland has made some pretty good decisions, I’d say.

Yep. He has. And for every good decision he’s made, he’s made two or three just plain awful ones.

Locking up Datsyuk was a good move.

No. It wasn’t.

Datsyuk is a player who has had only one good playoffs in his entire career. And he was overpaid ROYALLY. That was an awful move.

Cleary and Samuelsson were FA steals.

Cleary had a career year last year, and he will never even approach that type of offensive production.

Samuelsson is a dime-a-dozen plugger.

Zetterberg, Dastyuk, Holmstrom, all late, late, superlate, like, superhero late draft picks.

Holland didn’t draft Holmstrom.

Zetterberg, Datsyuk and arguably Fischer are the only 1st/2nd line or 1st/2nd pairing-caliber players that Holland ever drafted. Kindl may end up being one as well. Kronwall, it’s not looking good.

Even assuming that Kindl and Kronwall end up living up to their potential, that’s five quality players drafted in NINE FREAKING YEARS.

That’s a little better than one quality player every two years. That is awful, awful, AWFUL drafting.

Awful.

Prospects incapable of playing a significant role? Jonathon Ericsson?

What about him? He’s got 3rd pairing upside. If that.

Kyle Quincey was very solid in the playoffs, far more than could be expected of a green rookie.

Kyle Quincey is a complete plugger. Every team in the NHL has half a dozen players just like him in their prospect system. He might catch on with some team one day as a #6 DMan, but that’s about it.

How about Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader, who have performed big time at the championship level of their respective leagues?

Every team in the NHL has half a dozen players like Darren Helm as well. He’s nothing special. 20 year old point-a-game players in junior are a dime a dozen, bud. At his age, he should have dominated the Dub if he’s going to be anything special. He wasn’t even in the top 30 in scoring.

Abdelkader, you’re asking the wrong guy. Tran will be the first to tell you that I probably overrate the guy. I love what he brings to the table. That said, he has a long way to go before he’s NHL-ready.

Emmerton and Mursak?

Mursak is tiny, and it has yet to be seen if he can even translate his game to the AHL level, much less the NHL. Emmerton didn’t improve anywhere near as much as the Wings had hoped from 05-06 to 06-07. He’s likely a career AHLer. Certainly not a threat to play a significant role in the NHL.

Howard?

Howard regressed last year. He’s a long way away. He might be a backup in a few years, but he’s certainly not going to be a significant contributor.

Daniel Larsson who some are comparing to Henrik Lundqvist?

Ooh, someone compared your plugger to Henrik Lundqvist.

Yeah, and “some” are comparing Bretton Stamler to Bobby Orr, too.

You need to stop putting so much stock into what the turd polishers at RWC and HF say. None of them have any sort of experience in talent evaluation. There is no team with a more rabid group of people fluffing up a more pathetic group of prospects in the entire NHL.

I’d hate to see what would happen if the Wings ever acquired a blue chip. They’d probably petition the HOF to admit the guy before he ever even made an appearance in rookie camp.

I’d say Holland does pretty well.

At getting Wings fans to think he’s doing a good job? Obviously.

At identifying NHL talent? Most certainly not.

To top it all, every one and his mother can see this Wings roster can win this division,

Can? Yes.
Will? Probably.

Nashville, even after gutting their team, is still deeper (assuming Sullivan returns to form before the deadline) than the Wings are. Goaltending is a concern for them, but Mason was more than solid last year.

and Holland *still* has a ton of cap space to play with at the deadline

No he doesn’t. He’s got $4m. If he doesn’t spend any of it, that becomes a decent amount at the deadline, but it’s not that much.

He could acquire three or four major pieces with the money he’s got left.

$4m is not going to buy you three or four major pieces. Even at the prorated deadline total, it’s still not enough for three or four major pieces.

And Holland doesn’t have the assets to deal for major pieces. Unless he wants to further mortgage an already bleak future, which would be nice.

If drafting well, singing good-value free agents, locking up core players, and managing the cap is grounds for being a shitty GM I’d like to know what your criteria are.

He doesn’t draft well. He locks up core players for ridiculous amounts of money. And his cap management is not good at all. Add to that his inability to make imaginitive moves, and his long history of huge blunders (he’s lucky that Illitch put up with his wasteful ways), and yes, he’s a shitty GM.

And, out of curiosity, since you foresee the Wings’ downfall, I’m interested to know how you see it playing out. i.e., what contracts will we regret, where do we lack depth, what mistakes can’t be undone, etc.

Contracts you’ll regret:
Datsyuk - Too much money for way too long. When he gets back to disappearing in the playoffs, and he’s eating up such a large portion of the payroll, you’re gonna hate that one. I mean, just remember…Isles fans were positive about the Yashin signing at the time.

Hasek - Not so much that he’s overpaid, but rather that his contract is bonus-laden, which will count against the cap next season. Take it from an Avs fan who saw what can happen to your team when you’re paying bonuses for players who aren’t on your team anymore - that’s not a good thing.

Where you lack depth:
2nd line NHL-ready forwards.
Goaltending.
NHL-caliber prospect depth at all positions, especially defense.

Posted by Thomas on 09/12/07 at 11:53 PM ET

1. Divisional weakness gave you home ice, when you wouldn’t have gotten that in any other division.

Home ice is overrated. We didn’t need it against Calgary, and we lost it against SJ.

2. The Wings beat two teams that had the Wings beat, then choked the series away. Those aren’t wins to be celebrated.

Well this can be disputed. Obviously I think they deserved to win all three series.

If Hudler-Zetterberg-Samuelsson is your second line, then that line is not at all effective, and your first line becomes ineffective as well by pairing Datsyuk with two players who are incapable of playing on a first line.

I disagree. I think those two lines will do pretty well. Personally I’d like to see Cleary and Grigorenko end up in the Top 6, and have Franzen and Hudler with Filppula, but we’ll see how things turn out.

Datsyuk is a player who has had only one good playoffs in his entire career. And he was overpaid ROYALLY. That was an awful move.

I disagree. His “one good playoffs” was this most recent one, which came after the contract… I don’t see what will change in future years. My assessment of Datsyuk is that he’ll perform well in the coming years and live up to his contract, especially compared to the inflated deals being thrown around.

Cleary had a career year last year, and he will never even approach that type of offensive production.

I don’t think so. He was paired with Robert Lang all year. I think if you put him with Datsyuk or Zetterberg he can easily get there.

Samuelsson is a dime-a-dozen plugger.

By “dime-a-dozen plugger” do you mean 20-goal scorer?

That is awful, awful, AWFUL drafting.

Well again we disagree. I think there are plenty of good prospects in the Wings’ organization. Players are slower to come out from the minors to the big club because of all our depth. Also, we’ve been consistently drafting very, very low.

What about him? He’s got 3rd pairing upside. If that.

He scored 29 points in his first season in North America. He’s 6’3”. I would say he has 1st pairing upside.

Kyle Quincey is a complete plugger. Every team in the NHL has half a dozen players just like him in their prospect system. He might catch on with some team one day as a #6 DMan, but that’s about it.

I think Quincey is a very solid physical d-man. I think he’ll be a 3rd pairing d-man and kill penalties for us very well.

Every team in the NHL has half a dozen players like Darren Helm as well. He’s nothing special. 20 year old point-a-game players in junior are a dime a dozen, bud. At his age, he should have dominated the Dub if he’s going to be anything special. He wasn’t even in the top 30 in scoring.

I agree that scoring in junior is not a barometer of anything. But he’s not supposed to turn out like a 50 goal scorer. He’s going to be a great two-way grinder.

I love what he brings to the table.

We agree!

Howard regressed last year. He’s a long way away. He might be a backup in a few years, but he’s certainly not going to be a significant contributor.

Actually his save percentage went up. He was playing for a bad team.

Ooh, someone compared your plugger to Henrik Lundqvist.

That would be Hakan Andersson, the Wings’ European scout. The guy who scouted Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen, Holmstrom… I’d say I have reason to trust his assessment.

You need to stop putting so much stock into what the turd polishers at RWC and HF say. None of them have any sort of experience in talent evaluation. There is no team with a more rabid group of people fluffing up a more pathetic group of prospects in the entire NHL.

Doesn’t HF scout every team’s prospects? I’m just curious about how much experience you have evaluating talent. How many years, organizations, etc. I don’t have any, but I watch a lot of hockey and I think I can tell when somebody’s spewing altogether too much praise.

$4m is not going to buy you three or four major pieces. Even at the prorated deadline total, it’s still not enough for three or four major pieces.

$4m at the deadline is $16m in July 1 salaries. For three or four players, that’s 4 to 5.3 million per player. I would say we could net some significant players.

And Holland doesn’t have the assets to deal for major pieces. Unless he wants to further mortgage an already bleak future, which would be nice.

Holland has been mortgaging the future since he dealt Anders Eriksson and two first round draft picks to get Chris Chelios. Man! How could you mortgage the future for a rental like that. Seems we picked up Filppula and Hudler and Franzen without those picks. Seems Chelios has contributed. I don’t mind him trading more 1st rounders, because we keep getting late round gems.

And his cap management is not good at all.

Wait… do you disagree that we’re going to win the division and we still have significant room to spare under the cap? What *is* good cap management?

I disagree with just about every one of your assessments. (Except Abdelkader! Good call.)

Posted by Pete K from Grand Rapids, MI on 09/13/07 at 09:23 AM ET