Abel to Yzerman
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by IwoCPO on 07/02/09 at 02:31 AM ET
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Here’s what you do when you reach the Conference Finals and you fall short. You spend some money. And you spend it with one thing in mind and that’s taking the next step. You came so close that getting past the team that beat you is an obsession. We know all this. The Wings have been there. Twice in the last twelve years. A Conference Finals loss does weird things to you.
In Chicago’s case, it led them to sign Marian Hossa and his Mini-Marian, Tomas Kopecky. They also signed John Madden. They became stronger and they are going to be giving the Wings one heck of a run for the Central Division title next year. We knew this the moment Hossa signed.
But…
Like I said, they’re going to have a real nice regular season.
Huet and Crawford. Is that the tandem that is going to unseat the Wings as Western Conference Champs?
Oh. We’ve got ourselves a barn burner. Don’t get me wrong. It’s got all the ingredients. A defection last year of a hockey god. Some good regular season games followed by a fairly decent playoff series where the vanquished got a bit violent at the tail end of each loss. Young Hawks learning how to lose. A cheap shot that affected the Wings for the Final. And now a superstar switching sides under our noses.
But rivalry or not, unless Dale Tallon makes one more move before April of 2010? This thing is nothing more than a regular season sideshow because the Hawks aren’t doing squat with that goaltending. And while the core of the Wings is locked up for the better part of the next decade? The three most important Hawks are all up for new deals next summer with precious little cap room to maneuver under.
Oh, and don’t forget the Wing Bitch behind the bench. Woops.
Table that. Yes, they’ve got Hossa so we’ll be talking Chicago all year. And we’re going to address his signing here in a few. First, though, forget about Chicago for a second and let’s strictly deal with what the Wings have in front of them. Here are the cards Tick Tock’s dealt Uncle Mike, and it looks like this hand isn’t going to change.
Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk. Filppula, Cleary, Hudler (assuming).
Draper, Helm, Homer, Maltby, Leino (assuming). And at least one spot for one more whether that’s Abdelkader or a UFA. A core of twelve forwards as deep as any across the NHL.
Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Ericsson, Stuart (thanks George). A top five better than any in the league. Period. Add Lilja into the mix, subtracting Chelios and, somehow, Meech. Lebda stays unless something else better comes along and the blue line is still stacked.
And the inevitable regular season resurgence of Chris Osgood is a discussion for another time. Jimmy Howard’s place in the organ-I-zation is also tabled for now.
The depth isn’t what it was with Hossa. No getting around that. The firepower isn’t either. But a few things will make up for that, namely chemistry. Not to say it was bad with Hoss. I’m not claiming that. But I will say that I believe a team responds when the players who choose to stay...stay. Does that makes sense?
Now. It makes no difference how you feel about the departure of Hossa. It matters little to him and it definitely has no bearing on anything that happened the last twenty four hours. But it’s something to discuss because the emotion of this situation drives everything we, as fans and as readers of this blog, do.
Despite some sort of telepathic game I tried to play with Kenny Holland the last few months, where I honestly believed that every time I wrote “he’s staying”, Tick Tock was taking notes and nodding his head? The signing of Franzen probably sealed Hossa’s departure and the less reactionary of us understood and accepted that. There just wasn’t enough pizza dough to go around.
Oh. Re-phrase. There’s plenty of money to spend. But because of Little Gary’s lockout and his perverse CBA and the Cap number that he has flashing in neon next to the blown up picture of him and Rosby at Neverland Ranch? Because of all that, the money just sits there.
And because it does, Hossa had to move. He had to and we understand it. The idea that he’d stay for far less, that he’d take so much less to try and win again in Detroit...it could have happened, but we all knew the likelihood wasn’t great. And that’s not even really understanding all the economics of it. Maybe you do. I know I don’t. I’m certain I have no concept. Guess who does though? The anti-Digger.
Read this to see how Marian Hossa, when he made the decision to give himself one year’s run for a Cup, cost himself 30 million bucks.
So how do we handle this? Marian Hossa, on the surface, left Detroit...where he could have made forty-five million over ten, to play in Chicago where he’ll make approximately 1.2 or 3 million more per season. And while it is disturbing to see him go to a team obviously stacking up to compete with the Best Team in Hockey, you have to respect that he didn’t go to LA or somewhere else only to lose for 7 or 8/season.
And no, LA is not making the playoffs this year.
And he didn’t want to leave Detroit. Unlike last year, when his comments leaving Pittsburgh sent that city into a tailspin? Does this really piss you off? Are you Hossa haters now, after reading this?
“Ken was saying after he signed Henrik Zetterberg he was going to try to sign either me or (Johan) Franzen and you have to be happy for the guy (Franzen), he improved big time and he deserved everything he got. With the salary cap, it would be tough for me to return.,” Hossa said. “Otherwise, if there was no salary cap, I was sure I’d still be in Detroit.”
Not exactly, “I’m going to the team I feel gives me the best chance to win the Cup.”
Hate the guy if you want, but I know you won’t. Boo him if you must, but you won’t do that either. You’ll have three chances to do so if you want to, but I don’t see it happening. Economics forced his hand and his competitive nature sent him to a contender. It’s as simple as that.
It’s troubling that Chicago has another gun, but it’s not enough to cause me to break out the pitchforks or the voodoo dolls. The guy gave us a good run, a good shot and a good year. He gave himself one season to throw some caution and a lot of money out the window. Now it was time to get down to business and that’s what he did.
But, unfortunately for him and fortunately for us, his glove hand isn’t as good as his wrister. And the Hawks are going to need that glove a lot more come April or May.
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Wow, would you look at that first post.
It’s almost as if no one was manning the doors at the Pittsburgh Day Care Center or something, and a few of the more petulant ones escaped. Don’t worry, though, because you’ll soon be in the loving arms of your glorified babysitters soon.
Face it: While the Pens won the cup for the first time since Lemieux was still playing (you know, before he retired the first time), Detroit has won it four times in eleven years. Salary cap or not, Detroit has remained competitive throughout the years. Maybe four cups in 11 years doesn’t sound like much to you, but it’s currently the benchmark for success, and it shows that what we have here is a dynasty.
Now follow the nice lady back to the day care center, young one, because it’s time for your morning nap.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/02/09 at 09:48 AM ET
Decided by one goal, no less.
In a series in which the Wings had 3 more goals overall. I know, I know, the Penguins won 4 games and the cup. It’s hard to declare your team the undisputed best team when you were outplayed in several areas, and more decisively so at times. That’s what made it such a great series.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/02/09 at 09:48 AM ET
the truth is that the pens are rising and the wings are fading, you guys had a great run, and lidstrom is looking pretty old.
Try playing four games on painkillers after missing a couple recovering from testicle surgery and see how young you look.
And with all the revisionist history - What was the Penguins’ record BEFORE the coaching change? As I recall, they were on a pace for finishing 10th or 11th in the conference, which is out of the playoffs. UNTIL THERRIEN WAS FIRED HOSSA WAS 100% CORRECT. It isn’t like Pittsburgh lead wire to wire. They were out of the playoffs until they got a better coach and made some trades that actually worked as well as all teams making trades envision them working (but rarely do in reality). Hossa didn’t “diss” the Pens - he accurately assessed the situation as it was at the time, and made his decision accordingly, just as he did this year.
He wanted to play for a contending team - Chicago fits, as does Detroit.
He wanted a lifetime contract - Chicago gave him 12 years, Detroit offered 10 (reportedly).
He was willing to not break the bank to make that happen - with Gaborik getting $7.5 million a year, Hossa at $5+ million is extremely reasonable. And more than Detroit could afford to pay him.
Chicago could give him what he wanted, Detroit couldn’t quite match their offer, and all else being comparable he signed with the team that was the best contract fit for him. Entirely logical.
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 09:50 AM ET
Ahh..Got up this morning, read Chief’s new post and the first response...angry pens fan. It just warms the heart. The fact that they continue to try to justify their team and convince everybody that their team actually did win the cup last season makes me smile.
Posted by UMFan from Colorado on 07/02/09 at 09:50 AM ET
Because while Hossa was giving Pittsburgh hope, Shero couldn’t offer contracts to guys like Ryan Malone and Gary Roberts
Indeed. However, it should also be stated that those individuals didn’t like the direction Therrien was heading, which is why there was a defection of players from the Pittsburgh organization last off-season.
One theory I have is that Hossa left Pittsburgh not only because he wanted to win and he wanted it now, but I think he also didn’t like Therrien. He left money on the table because he saw Therrien get re-signed by the organization and didn’t want to get tied down somewhere if the coaching was going to suck.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/02/09 at 09:51 AM ET
Because while Hossa was giving Pittsburgh hope, Shero couldn’t offer contracts to guys like Ryan Malone and Gary Roberts.
Who’s fault is that, for waiting until well after the last minute to get things done?
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/02/09 at 09:52 AM ET
Pens fans reaction to Marian Hossa signing with another team: “ZOMG!1!!! Trayter!!1! How could you leave us after playing 10 games for us!!!!!1! You are are most hayted player in hockey!!1!”
Wings fans reaction to Marian Hossa signing with another team: “Meh.”
Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 07/02/09 at 09:55 AM ET
this board lives in the past
the truth is that the pens are rising and the wings are fading, you guys had a great run, and lidstrom is looking pretty old.
Posted by jon from Simpleton Capital of tha World on 07/02/09 at 10:30 AM ET
Most of don’t care how he looks, you simpleton. It’s how he plays. Nominated for a Norris and deserving to win it doesn’t seem like he’s losing anything. Don’t forget he played through injury and Gary’s “suspension” this year. Oh and he plays in the West, where things are tougher. Unlike Norris winner Chara or Vezina winner Green.
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 07/02/09 at 09:55 AM ET
… Shero admitted he made the mistake of waiting on Hossa while the character guys like Malone and Roberts got contracts elsewhere, ...
Then don’t blame Hossa, blame Shero for not being able to hold more than one thing in his tiny mind at once! It isn’t Hossa’s fault if a GM can’t multitask - the Oiler fans haven’t held anything against Hossa for their GM’s inability last year to sign Glencross before he went to Calgary because he couldn’t do more than one thing at a time, they ripped their own management a new one for not being capable of handling more than one contract negotiation at a time.
Blame where it is deserved, not where it isn’t. Booing a scapegoat player instead of incompetent management moves is going after the easy but inappropriate target.
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 09:57 AM ET
Dudes, I know it was Shero’s fault for waiting on Hossa. Even he admitted as such. But all I keep hearing from Wings fans is “Penguins fans are bitchy becuase Hossa left them for the Wings.” You always have these Detrout-centralized explanations for everything, when there’s much more below that ridiculous surface. Frankly, I wasn;t a Hossa booer. I knew he was a rent-a-player, but having him tie up our free agency plans last summer bummed me out.
Holland just spent however long trying to make an appropriate deal for Hossa, and got rejected. You’re lying out of your ass if you can;t say that you’d rather Holland was looking in other directions now that it’s a given that Hossa won’t be back. It’s time wasted on one player...Shero got caught up in it, and Holland did this year as well.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 09:58 AM ET
Shero admitted he made the mistake of waiting on Hossa while the character guys like Malone and Roberts got contracts elsewhere
My response: “WHO’S FAULT IS THAT?”
Baroque’s response: Eloquent explanation of egregious errors of the executive
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/02/09 at 10:00 AM ET
One theory I have is that Hossa left Pittsburgh not only because he wanted to win and he wanted it now, but I think he also didn’t like Therrien. He left money on the table because he saw Therrien get re-signed by the organization and didn’t want to get tied down somewhere if the coaching was going to suck.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/02/09 at 10:51 AM ET
I think you’re right. If Hossa had the feeling that he could outlast Therrien and after he (coach) was fired he (player) would still be there with a solid team and a better coach, I think he would have stayed. He didn’t want to be stuck if he didn’t know there was going to be a coaching change, though.
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 10:01 AM ET
Pens fans reaction to Marian Hossa signing with another team: “ZOMG!1!!! Trayter!!1! How could you leave us after playing 10 games for us!!!!!1! You are are most hayted player in hockey!!1!”
Wings fans reaction to Marian Hossa signing with another team: “Meh.”
Posted by Mandingo from 6’3”, 3 bills on 07/02/09 at 10:55 AM ET
Mandingo! A warmest welcome now that your deceased corpse (likely from alcohol poisoning) has been reanimated. In response to your post, it reminded me of Penny Arcade’s “iweb conversator”
http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/yhst-34640480252896_2054_1310617
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 07/02/09 at 10:02 AM ET
all I keep hearing from Wings fans is “Penguins fans are bitchy becuase Hossa left them for the Wings.”
Maybe over on Puck Daddy, but I don’t recall anyone stating it this simply. I think you’re being defensive and refusing to give the benefit of the doubt that it is complex, since it hasn’t been said in awhile.
We understand the Pens fans are mad because of what Hossa said, and not where he was going. We know. The Chief even said it in the article, if you read it.
Every time Hossa is brought up, someone is going to have to write a disclaimer, just for the sensitive and bitchy Pens fans, that we don’t believe everything made of their straw man.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/02/09 at 10:05 AM ET
Dudes, I know it was Shero’s fault for waiting on Hossa. Even he admitted as such. But all I keep hearing from Wings fans is “Penguins fans are bitchy becuase Hossa left them for the Wings.” You always have these Detrout-centralized explanations for everything, when there’s much more below that ridiculous surface.
[Sniff] You smell that Baroque? It’s the smell of a whiny pen(i)s fanned getting OWNED on this blog. And we owe it all to you.
Like shooting penguins in a barrel for you, no doubt, but entertaining nonetheless.
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 07/02/09 at 10:06 AM ET
The Chief even said it in the article, if you read it.
I suppose that was a dangler.
Replace with:
“The Chief even said it in the article; if you read it, you would know this.”
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/02/09 at 10:06 AM ET
… But all I keep hearing from Wings fans is “Penguins fans are bitchy becuase Hossa left them for the Wings.” ...
Because some of the fans are EXACTLY like that. Not all (you are one of the reasonable ones, for example), but some are jsut like that. And those are the loudest ones.
Holland just spent however long trying to make an appropriate deal for Hossa, and got rejected. You’re lying out of your ass if you can;t say that you’d rather Holland was looking in other directions now that it’s a given that Hossa won’t be back. It’s time wasted on one player...Shero got caught up in it, and Holland did this year as well.
If Holland was so caught up in Hossa, then why were three teams allowed to negotiate semi-exclusively (since it was more than one, is it really exclusive?) for the last week?
**
The Wings, who were squeezed by their salary cap, offered 10 years for $40 million for the forward. But they knew they likely wouldn’t get him and gave his agent Ritch Winter permission a week ago to talk to other teams. They did it out of the goodness of their heart because they could have tried to trade his negotiating rights as Florida did with Jay Bouwmeester; but they felt they owed Hossa for signing with Detroit last year and leaving lots of money on the table elsewhere.
(found it here)
**
They already had ruled out Kopecky, McCarty, and Downey regardless of what Hossa was going to do, and Samuelsson was going to test the market no matter what as well. The only real issues Holland has are Leino and Hudler, and as they are both RFA Holland didn’t have to worry about either of them signing elsewhere while he was waiting on Hossa. Detroit has fewer UFAs this year that they are interested in keeping than Pittsburgh had last year, so Hossa uncertainty is less significant than it was for the Penguins last year.
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 10:11 AM ET
The Chief even said it in the article, if you read it.
He Spells his name is “The Chief even said it in the article; if you read it, you would know this.”
Posted by Guilherme from Brasil on 07/02/09 at 10:11 AM ET
MarkK, that was a generalization. Wings fans do the same, saying that Cindy is a whiner, all Pens trolls come onto your board to justify their team, etc etc. The same happened at places like Pensblog last year after the Wings won. Everyone/thing gets generalized thanks to several assholes.
One theory I have is that Hossa left Pittsburgh not only because he wanted to win and he wanted it now, but I think he also didn’t like Therrien. He left money on the table because he saw Therrien get re-signed by the organization and didn’t want to get tied down somewhere if the coaching was going to suck.
But you guys still haven’t brought up Babcock as a possible reason that Hossa’s now in Chicago. It’s very easy to dismantle another team’s so-called “problems” and not your own.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 10:12 AM ET
Any particular reason I was just called a “douchebag”, Sullyosis?
Posted by Flashtastick56 from Milford, CT on 07/02/09 at 10:13 AM ET
Holland just spent however long trying to make an appropriate deal for Hossa, and got rejected. You’re lying out of your ass if you can;t say that you’d rather Holland was looking in other directions now that it’s a given that Hossa won’t be back. It’s time wasted on one player...Shero got caught up in it, and Holland did this year as well.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 10:58 AM ET
I disagree. I’m glad that Kenny Holland “wasted” that time trying to get Hossa to resign with Detroit. Everybody knew what Detroit’s cap situation was and they showed that they were still willing to try to find a way to make it work with a player who had said he wanted to stay. From a PR standpoint, it worked out perfectly. The Red Wings got to save face and show players that they are still committed to guys and Hossa got to save face by taking a contract in Chicago that only an idiot would pass up.
The Red Wings aren’t in terrible shape from having lost out on all that time. We locked up our big name free agents before this ridiculousness started (Zetterberg and Franzen). While I personally would have liked to have seen Laperriere come to Detroit, the fact that he went to Philadelphia could, should, and would not be any kind of a factor for them going into next year. We simply haven’t “missed the boat” on the pieces we need. Hudler didn’t sign a ridiculous offer sheet and there’s even still a chance that Samuelsson won’t find much more value on the open market and will decide to come back to us. If we lose both of those players though, it won’t be because Kenny Holland “wasted” time trying to get Hossa.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 07/02/09 at 10:13 AM ET
Yes, Hossa didn’t leave you for the team that beat you, but he didn’t tell you that Chicago had the best chance to win the Cup.
Ok, you’re delusional if you honestly think that one year ago Detroit did NOT have the best chance to win the Cup. Hell, Detroit had the best chance to win the cup until 2 minutes left in game 7. The penguins pulled off an upset. Period. Shero made some moron moves last offseason, and redeemed himself at the deadline. He found a diamond in the rough in Bylsma. But before those moves, the Pens weren’t even going to MAKE the playoffs. Call it a slap in the face if you want, but Hossa’s decision was smart. It was accurate. It almost panned out. But that’s how things go, and the Pens did a 180.
Yes, you won the cup. But you seem to forget there seemed to be a snowball’s chance in hell of that happening as late as January 09.
First off, the “Best Team in Hockey” right now is the Stanley Cup Champions, the Pittsburgh Penguins, until someone proves otherwise.
Again, not sold by this kind of logic. You may be able to boast a Cup for 48 more tuesdays. But the Wings only lost that cup by 2 goals. Add to that the fact the the wings won the cup the year before. Add to that that the wings have more regular season wins in the last 12 years than any other team in the NHL. And postseason wins. And president’s trophies. And division titles. And conference titles. And Stanley Cups.
If you want to unseat us, you’ll have to do so by more than two goals. Sorry.
...is it October yet?
Posted by CaptNorris5 from Chicago via Detroit on 07/02/09 at 10:15 AM ET
It will ne nice to see Hossa get KRONWALLED.
Posted by Wigs_Fan_In_KC on 07/02/09 at 10:16 AM ET
Chicago went to the Western Conference Finals, and just signed someone who is probably their third best player now (behind Toews, Keith- but ahead of Kane, in my book). Great signing for them. I think the Hossa and Bolland signings cost them Versteeg, Keith, or Seabrook in a couple years, though.
I’ve talked myself into letting Hossa go without bitterness- and here’s why. We get to see Valtteri Filppula as a top 6 forward again. He was great in the playoffs last year and somewhat less impressive this regular season. I don’t think he regressed, by any means, but I think the lack of minutes hurt him a lot because of the style of game he plays.
This year, you’re looking at him playing on one of the top two lines, either as a winger with Datsyuk or centering Franzen (meaning Z and Dats together again… and I think we can all dig that) and your third line is still pretty solid at C with Darren Helm. I say pretty solid because we had a guy who is a #1 on some teams in Fippulla, now we’ve got a guy who obviously has the potential to be one of the best #3 centers in the league.
Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen
Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Leino-Helm-Sammy/Huds
Maltby-Draper-Abdelkader (or, more likely, a FA)
Lids-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Ericsson-Lebda/Meech/Lilja.
I dig that roster. Its virtually the same as the cup winner, with a better FIlppula, a better defense and a bit more ‘hungry’. I’d love to see Abdelkader up full time, maybe he slots into the #3 center spot by the end of the season and they can drop Helm down to the 4th line role where Babcock likes him (remember his, “We’ve got grit when our guys are playing in the right places” line about the injury shuffle).
You’ve still got flexibility. Sammy (if) can play on a line with Z and Franzen and work, or he can bump down to 4th. Hudler (if) can play on a third line and score 20, again, or he can fit into any winger spot on the top 2 lines. Same with Leino. Someone probably gets bumped up to Holmstrom’s spot for 40-60 games to prevent Homer from breaking down this badly again, and there’s plenty of candidates that make sense. All in all, the Wings lost a top 20 forward in the league and are still embarrassingly deep in guys who are legitimate top-6 forwards. That’s not so bad.
Personally, I’d rather see Sammy brought back if we’ve got to sign someone for a “grit” role. He does it pretty well and, while not as enjoyable as Hudler in most ways, I think he might bring more to the table overall. Of course, this is predicated on Sammy being a 1-1.5 mill/year forward and Hudler being a 2.5-3- which is too much for the little guy- so Hudler’s humility or Sammy’s ego may make my contemplations moot.
Posted by shanetx on 07/02/09 at 10:16 AM ET
It’s all about timing. Had Holland waited until now to sign Zetta and Mule, he’d be a God today.
Posted by Guilherme from Brasil on 07/02/09 at 10:17 AM ET
Everyone/thing gets generalized thanks to several assholes.
That’s definitely true, Tecmo.
I see what you’re saying about Babcock. Hossa did often seem to react negatively when playing on the second line. I’d say it’s possible. There aren’t any reports to back this up that I know of; there were pretty consistent reports about how much friction there was between Therrien (sp?) and the team. Of course, some of those came out after the fact.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/02/09 at 10:17 AM ET
But you guys still haven’t brought up Babcock as a possible reason that Hossa’s now in Chicago. It’s very easy to dismantle another team’s so-called “problems” and not your own.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 11:12 AM ET
Babcock’s a proven winner and we’re, for the most part, a team-first bunch of fans. Blame it on Bowman, but if a player has a problem with our coach, that’s the player’s problem and we’re not incredibly sad to see him go if that’s the case. Nobody doubted Robert Lang’s talent, but we were all right to challenge his heart.
Also, do you honestly think that Babcock is something that needs to be replaced by the Wings for them to be successful? Ballsy claim, considering nobody else in their entire right mind agrees with you.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 07/02/09 at 10:17 AM ET
Looks like the Pens fans are out to replace the Blues fans as the most bitter Wings-haters on the planet. Does that make them the BPB now? Whatever. Neither are of any consequence.
As for Marian somehow turning Chicago into the next Western Conference Champion, let’s not forget that Havlat’s leaving means the Hawks have gained basically nothing (except a Cup Finals albatross).
Based on Havlat’s and Hossa’s stats from last year, Chicago picked up 11 goals and lost 17 assists for an overall loss of six points. And Havlat even had a slightly better +/- than Marian did. You could say, adding Hossa and losing Havlat is a wash.
Madden replacing Pahlsson is also sort of a wash. So the big “improvement” in Chicago is...wait for it...the addition of Tomas Kopecky. Oooooo. Scary...especially since Huet is replacing Khabibulin.
The signing of Franzen probably sealed Hossa’s departure and the less reactionary of us understood and accepted that.
Yes, we did, Chief. Yes we did. 
Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 07/02/09 at 10:19 AM ET
Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen
Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Leino-Helm-Sammy/Huds
Maltby-Draper-Abdelkader (or, more likely, a FA)
I don’t know who I’d fit on the 1st line, but I’d like to see Cleary on the 3rd along with Helm. Their were great in the playoffs together.
Posted by Guilherme from Brasil on 07/02/09 at 10:19 AM ET
If Holland was so caught up in Hossa, then why were three teams allowed to negotiate semi-exclusively (since it was more than one, is it really exclusive?) for the last week?
You just twisted my statement. I said you’re lying if you wouldn’t want Holland to be working on other aspects of your team now that you know that Hossa won’t be back. Knowing that he didn’t re-sign, Holland wasted whatever time he spent on the declined 10 year deal as well as the rumored 7 year deal during the Finals.
The only real issues Holland has are Leino and Hudler, and as they are both RFA Holland didn’t have to worry about either of them signing elsewhere while he was waiting on Hossa. Detroit has fewer UFAs this year that they are interested in keeping than Pittsburgh had last year, so Hossa uncertainty is less significant than it was for the Penguins last year.
That’s why I said I was bummed that the effort going towards making a suitable contract offer for Hossa hurt our chances at keeping guys like Malone and Roberts
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 10:20 AM ET
I should have included that the Kings confirmed that they were one of three teams negotiating with Hossa. That comes from the link here.
Here is an interesting quote from Lombardi of the LA Kings about what Hossa was thinking during the negotiations:
The No. 1 guy we targeted was Hossa. I got permission to talk to Hossa at the draft. There were three teams, us and two others. Detroit gave me permission, and we started the dialogue at that time. Detroit, if he got signed, they would get compensation. We met with his agent there, at that time, and he was interested in L.A. He said he thinks we could be the next Chicago. But he said, `That’s down the road,’ and that’s fair, that’s realistic. He said it was important to go to a 100-point team. I said, `I don’t know if we can guarantee that, but you’re the type of player we’re prepared to commit to.’ He was the one player we thought was a top player. I don’t know that he’s a `mail carrier’ type guy, but he’s still a top player.
``That dialogue continued until July 1. He was throwing (contract) numbers out there, but it was very vague in terms of numbers. We talked again last night and I got the sense that this was probably going in a different direction. I said, `What would it take?’ but we never really got an answer. I think he had his eye on something else already. We thought it was Boston. He told us this morning that it was probably unlikely that he would come here. It wasn’t really the 12-year term that got us out of it. It never got to that point. Part of this is that you’re frustrated, but the other part is that you want guys like that. I’ve always said you want guys who want to win first. And you look at Chicago, where they’ve come in the last seven drafts and where they’re at. Chicago, it took six years; we’re three years in. That’s the process they went through, and then they broke through. We’re hoping that if we break through like they did, we can compete (for players) at that level. We were prepared to talk about the cash and the 12 years.
(emphasis in bold is mine, not from the original)
And as mentioned in previous comments, it is understood that it was Hossa’s comments that raised the ire of most of the Penguin fans, not so much the fact that he left (again, except for the loud unreasonable cases). Still, he has to say nice things about the new team - all free agents do.
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 10:20 AM ET
Sullyosis, you must really hate WV, have you ever been here? Probably not, all your name calling implies that you’re probably a teenager who has never left their parents home, or you at least act like one.
And i don’t know how you can make fun of green lush rolling hills and cold trickling streams when you live in a f#%^ing desert.
Posted by jon from wv on 07/02/09 at 10:21 AM ET
Shero got caught up in it, and Holland did this year as well.
Que? How so? He already signed Hank and Mule to their contracts during the regular season. The Best GM in Hockey didn’t get caught up in anything.
Mandingo: I wrote an ode to you in the last post; it was da gratst EVAR!!11!! LOL!!!11
_____________
I want to give our Howard a chance, but man, I’m pessimistic after the rather up and down year he had in the AHL. He should have been dominant this year, but we’ll see.
More later: recovering from the Flu.
Posted by Osrt on 07/02/09 at 10:23 AM ET
Based on Havlat’s and Hossa’s stats from last year, Chicago picked up 11 goals and lost 17 assists for an overall loss of six points. And Havlat even had a slightly better +/- than Marian did. You could say, adding Hossa and losing Havlat is a wash.
Add that to the fact that Hossa will no longer have Dr. Dagle feeding him the puck in the slot. I wouldn’t be suprised if his point totals go down on the Hawks team.
Posted by CaptNorris5 from Chicago via Detroit on 07/02/09 at 10:26 AM ET
Popped for for my RDA of hate, discontent and gay jokes --- ahhh now I’m full.
The ambiguously gay duo thing was funny; I hope Sid and Geno don’t try an inverted mount, though, or we could have another Zednik incident.
I heard a few comments about the Hossa animosity in PGH (Sorry to bring it up, AGAIN) suggesting that it was more than just what he said and I will make my very last addition to that: If Wings fans cared even a little about Hossa going to a rival, there’s nothing wrong with that; we are emotionally attached to our teams and we’re supposed to care but you were able to pick him up for nothing but a price tag. You lost nothing to gain a 40 goal scorer. More than the ill-timed quotes he made, Pens fans were angry because they lost Armstrong and Christensen (#1 pick Esposito) and a future #1 pick. Was it worth it? Sure. We made it game 6 of the finals before losing to a great team, but the cost was very high. Nuff’ said.
As for Crosby being greedy; you’re high. Crosby, Malkin, Orpik, Fleury and more recently Guerin and Adams ALL signed BELOW market value at the time of their signings. Check this article from a local PGH newspaper:
Something we both have in common is our division rivals got a lot better this year; it’s gonna be tough to repeat but I truly hope to meet DET again in the Finals, because I enjoy the posts here (even the inflammatory ones) and the farther we get from SCF 2009, the less relevance there is between PENS-WINGS.
By the way, I go to Detroit every year (family there) for St. Patrick’s and party in Corktown - any other fans of the Tipperary (sp?) out there?
Posted by Moebius on 07/02/09 at 10:27 AM ET
Que? How so? He already signed Hank and Mule to their contracts during the regular season. The Best GM in Hockey didn’t get caught up in anything.
He signed a ONE YEAR DEAL with Detroit. Wings fans keep saying that Pens fans should get over that Hossa was a rent-a-player who was only there from the deadline on. Fine. Hossa was a sniper for hire...ONE YEAR, with Detroit. The mere fact that Holland was trying to re-sign him to a longer contract is the exact same thing you guys are blasting Shero for. Both GMs looked at a guy who was clearly with both teams for a finite amount of time, and tried to offer him contracts. There was hope from both fanbases that he’d re-sign with their team, no matter the magnitude of that hope.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 10:28 AM ET
More later: recovering from the Flu.
And everyone immediately dons a mask and starts spraying their computer with Lysol.
And just to set the tone for the upcoming season, here’s a little gem of a photo that was posted on George’s blog.
Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 07/02/09 at 10:30 AM ET
I’ve got to type faster or something. :(
Re: Coaching as an issue:
I think it comes down to two things, both numbers.
- the team’s record
- the number of players who have a problem with the coach
If the team is winning and a player has a problem, it is the fault of the player himself (possibly Shanahan, possibly Schneider, definitely Heatley).
If the team is losing and many players are unhappy, it is the coach.
Babcock was winning and the rest of the team didn’t have any issues, therefore if Hossa left for that reason, it was his fault and not Babcock’s.
And if Leino and Hudler were both UFA and were told to wait while the Hossa thing played out, signed contracts elsewhere before Hossa did and then Detroit had lost useful players for that reason, I’d be upset with Holland - but since both guys are RFA and were qualified, he could wait for the Hossa thing to resolve itself without losing either before he had a chance to talk to them. So no, I’m not upset with Holland for how it worked out - and I’m not a liar.
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 10:31 AM ET
But, really, you guys SHOULD boo him…
Probably....
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 07/02/09 at 10:33 AM ET
West Virginia would be prettier if the coal industry wasn’t ripping mountains to bits to get at the coal and dumping the waste crap in the streams. *#$%@& land rapists. 
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 10:36 AM ET
Look, Pens fans. You won. Get over it. Fact is, the Pens fans took it to heart that Hossa signed in Detroit. Most of us really don’t care that he signed a career deal in Chicago. That’s the difference, here. You all took it so seriously and considered yourselves snubbed. We just don’t give a shit.
Best of luck to Hossa in Chicago ...just so long as he’s not experiencing that luck against us.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/02/09 at 10:36 AM ET
Thanks for the welcome backs, folks.
I’m still in stunned, semi-retirement, but I should be putting the razor and sleepings pills down sometme around August.
Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 07/02/09 at 10:38 AM ET
So no, I’m not upset with Holland for how it worked out - and I’m not a liar.
That’s fine. What I was saying is that you guys have a core of players. So do the Pens. You have a good GM. So do the Pens.
Hossa chose not to re-sign with the Wings. Even if Holland spent 30 seconds on his deal offer, it was 30 seconds that amounted to nothing. Same thing happened last year with Shero. You can say that it’s all good because your core is locked up and you don’t have that many UFAs, but it was still all effort and no results. Tell me Holland couldn’t have been doing other things instead of working on a (now-proven) hopeless cause.
word verification is 69night. i love juvenile humor
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 10:38 AM ET
He signed a ONE YEAR DEAL with Detroit. Wings fans keep saying that Pens fans should get over that Hossa was a rent-a-player who was only there from the deadline on. Fine. Hossa was a sniper for hire...ONE YEAR, with Detroit. The mere fact that Holland was trying to re-sign him to a longer contract is the exact same thing you guys are blasting Shero for. Both GMs looked at a guy who was clearly with both teams for a finite amount of time, and tried to offer him contracts. There was hope from both fanbases that he’d re-sign with their team, no matter the magnitude of that hope.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 11:28 AM ET
I don’t even know what you’re arguing now. The only Shero blasting we’ve done came after you brought him up when you blamed the attempt to get Hossa on getting screwed in free agency. That was more of an agreement with you than anything. We’ve all come to the conclusion that it was Shero’s fault he let some free agents slip through the cracks while trying to woo Hossa. We’ve also said that it’s not the same case this year with Holland, as it doesn’t seem as though they’ve missed out on either signing a big name from elsewhere or keeping a key cog in-town. We’d have an argument if Red Wings fans were reacting to Hossa’s signing in Chicago with the same rage and hurt that Penguins fans had last year. Sure, I understand that his saying that he wanted to go to the best chance for a cup would be painful. But, none of us are calling him a traitor, something that Penguins fans did en masse after last summer.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 07/02/09 at 10:41 AM ET
Sullyosis, you must really hate WV, have you ever been here? Probably not, all your name calling implies that you’re probably a teenager who has never left their parents home, or you at least act like one.
And i don’t know how you can make fun of green lush rolling hills and cold trickling streams when you live in a f#%^ing desert.
Posted by jon from wv on 07/02/09 at 11:21 AM ET
Hmm, I’m a miner so no problem with the Geology or Topography of WV. In fact, you could say I like the region of WV for it’s hills and green and 4 seasons as much as I like the desert (hyperbole); but, what you fail to understand is that I’m not saying anything bad about the landscape of WV. Coal mining, forests, hills with great hunting and fishing. What could I possibly hate about it that someone named after a toilet doesn’t quite understand? What’s the missing ingredient you’re not seeing here? Surely, it couldn’t be the simpletons?
Repeat after me (in sasquatch-speak): “YES I’m named after a toilet NO I don’t know which one”
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 07/02/09 at 10:44 AM ET
West Virginia would be prettier if the coal industry wasn’t ripping mountains to bits to get at the coal and dumping the waste crap in the streams. *#$%@& land rapists. mad
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/02/09 at 11:36 AM ET
Whoa whoa whoa young lady, it’s a necessary part of our life cycle. No hating on mining, period. It’s what damned the state of Michigan. I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said up until this point. Just accept it as a necessity and let’s move on. By they way, seriously nice work on quieting the trolls. Aren’t you proud at how little we’ve fed them this week? They should be starved soon....
Posted by Sullyosis from A hateful lair in Post Apocalyptic US (or Arizona) on 07/02/09 at 10:48 AM ET
JJ, read what it was in response to. Some Wings fan saying that Holland didn’t get caught up in wanting Hossa. No matter the scope of Holland’s offer, he was still trying to get Hossa onto the Wings long-term. That response was to the guy saying that Holland is some demigod that doesn’t get caught up in anything.
Posted by tecmo on 07/02/09 at 10:50 AM ET
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Blogs the Chief Likes
Can we fit any UFA into the team?
I hope so, since we’ll need to fill at least one spot…
Why do you use the past to define your greatness?
Because that’s how you define greatness. Continued success. 4 Cup wins and 2 SCF appearances, including the last SCF and the previous Cup. Sorry, but you have to be really, REALLY short sighted to not be able to recognize that. A team that is consistently good and HAS BEEN consistently among the top teams in the league for over a decade? Sorry, a team that has had two great years in that span is somehow better?
Talk to me in another ten years and maybe you’ll have an argument.
Hey… you know what, though? I’ll play your inane game.
*ahem*
Your team won the cup a month ago. STOP LIVING IN THE PAST.
the truth is that the pens are rising and the wings are fading
Based on back-to-back finals appearances? Yeah, that’s quite fade!
Posted by Garth on 07/02/09 at 09:45 AM ET