Whew boy…

Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 10/21/09 at 11:33 AM ET

That there’s a topic for a great debate.

I will say there’s certainly more of a case for raising Ozzie’s number than Drew Sharp’s ludicrous suggestion that the Wings retire Hasek’s number.

Posted by Arthur2sheds from Toronto on 10/21/09 at 11:36 AM ET

How exactly do the Red Wings win in spite of Chris Osgood?

That’s my favorite line in the article.  I always remember when he hoisted the Cup in ‘98 and Bill Clement said, “Tell the world, baby.”  It was such a great moment.

If the Wings play well, he rarely gets the credit, when the Wings lose, he gets the majority of the blame.  I do like his ability to roll with it and his confindence during the playoffs last year was great.

It was interesting listening to the Dive announcers give props to Osgood last week…it felt surreal.

I like his arguments but I feel strange about retiring his number….not really sure why.

Posted by hockeychic from Denver, CO on 10/21/09 at 11:38 AM ET

Ozzie’s cost-benefit is huge, and he could (but won’t) become the signature-goalie for the cap era.

And retiring his number… Well, he’s a homegrown clutch goalie with 3 Cups. Extremely debatable, I don’t know if he’s more likely to go to the Hockey Hall of Fame or to the Joe’s rafters.

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 10/21/09 at 11:41 AM ET

I’m with drew. Love what the guy’s done, and I think he’s earned his hall of fame pass. But I’m not sure that I identify him so strongly with the Wings that he gets to hang with the legends. Maybe a plaque on the wall in the concourse.

Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 10/21/09 at 11:48 AM ET

I’m for it.

Yes, he left for the Isles and Blues.  He then came back, won 1 Cup, and came very close to winning another.

He’s the franchise’s all-time winningest goaltender, and his numbers when he retires will by and large place him amongst the game’s greatest goaltenders.  He won Cups in both the pre- and post-lockout eras. 

And we’ve proven that not just any goalie can breeze into Detroit and win Cups.  CuJo didn’t.  Manny Legace didn’t.  Dominik Hasek had some difficulty.  And yet somehow, Osgood bookends them all with Cup rings, doesn’t he?

If I were building an all-time Wings team, would he be me #1 or #2?  No, probably #3 though (those are some awfully good #‘s 1 and 2 though).

Also… let’s be honest, the road is not exactly littered with awesome Wings goalies…  don’t honor Osgood and you could be looking at a curse of another 50 years of awful goalies.

Posted by Primis on 10/21/09 at 11:55 AM ET

Not disagreeing at all, I wouldn’t compare it to Haseks 02 run for the cup, though. Come on now? Four straight wins in round one, after being down 2 games to none? Then, not to mention his six shutouts throughout the whole playoffs.

Posted by Cody Jennings from Downriver, Michigan on 10/21/09 at 11:57 AM ET

I’m with the rest of you.  I just am not sure what I think.

I think it feels a little weird thinking about it hanging in the rafters to me because he spent several years out of Detroit.  It’s easy with Yzerman and Lidstrom, they’re career Red Wings, and dominated as players.  The rest of the retired jerseys are from over 40 years ago, classic players.  And that’s it.  It’s hard to think of another number joining them worn by a player who wasn’t a career Detroit player.  Not that it’s a bad thing, but it’s just part of the difficulty in deciding for me.  His career in Detroit has been stellar, though.  I just wonder if the bar for players to get their numbers raised to the rafters is too high for him.  All that to say, I just don’t know, and probably wouldn’t be upset if it went either way.

In fact, if you asked me today who are the players that will, definitely, have their banners in the rafters one day, Lidstrom is the only one I could say absolutely “yes” about.  I know Zetterberg and Datsyuk are VERY likely, but who knows what the future holds for them.  Perhaps they have season-destroying injuries, or perhaps they drop off, sharply, from being elite players, or (God forbid) they play for other teams at some point.  I know, it’s all so unlikely, but I guess I’m saying it’s hard to be certain about anyone (aside from Lidstrom).

I guess another part of it is that I’ve only had the privilege to watch one, single player who’s had his number retired actually play the game as a Red Wing.  And that kind of skews my thinking that it’s a really exclusive club and I’m not about to just open the gates to anyone and everyone who happens to be a Red Wing for a while.

Posted by BuzzFledderjohn on 10/21/09 at 12:02 PM ET

For those concerned.. also keep this in mind:

Osgood did not WILLINGLY leave Detroit.  The Wings pushed him out.  It wasn’t like Osgood took money elsewhere and ran.

Posted by Primis on 10/21/09 at 12:05 PM ET

I defer to the Chief.

I"d take #30.

Hang it up.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 10/21/09 at 12:05 PM ET

I’m just happy that this isn’t another Ozzie the HOF-er debate.  I can only do one of those every 4 or 5 months.

How exactly do the Red Wings win in spite of Chris Osgood?

Goaltending is obviously unbalanced in terms of importance on a hockey team.  While only 1 player out of 6 on the ice, you wouldn’t say that he holds 1/6th of the team’s responsibility, because it’s much more than that.  He’s always on the ice.  The margin for error is so much smaller for a goalie than another player; a skater can fuch up and get bailed out by his goalie—if a goalie messes up, puck’s in the net.  This is all very obvious stuff to anybody who watches the sport. 

So to hear people say that the skaters in front of him can win over the long haul in spite of his performance is an indicator for me to stop listening to them.  Think of the number of “elite” goalies that aren’t one but TWO Cups behind Ozzie.  Retiring the number is a no brainer to me.  If for nothing else I think it would be a great tribute to a guy who has been with the team forever and hasn’t always received the credit he has deserved.

Posted by Triple Deke Tyler from Lansing on 10/21/09 at 12:06 PM ET

If Ozzie gets his number retired, then I think Drapes should have his lifted up too.

Posted by mike from austin on 10/21/09 at 12:16 PM ET

LOFL.  Osmediocre, THE poster goalie for a great team being able to carry a mediocre goalie to a cup or two.

Posted by rwhater on 10/21/09 at 12:20 PM ET

LOFL.  Osmediocre, THE poster goalie for a great team being able to carry a mediocre goalie to a cup or two.

Posted by BOBBING IN BOULDER on 10/21/09 at 01:20 PM ET

fixed

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 10/21/09 at 12:24 PM ET

I don’t know, I see Osgood on the same level as Shanahan, Fedorov and, to a lesser degree, Homer, Drapes and Maltby (and McCarty on the Bizarro World).

All important players, but maybe not banner material.

I think there’s a good chance we’ll never see #30 again, on the rafters or on someone’s back (as 6 or 16).

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 10/21/09 at 12:26 PM ET

At this point, I go with no.  I feel badly because it’s not Osgood’s fault, but he is not the unquestioned best Red Wings goaltender of this era.  It might be a no-brainer to lift his name ot the rafters in some clubs, but it’s harder to achieve with a team like Detroit or Montreal.  He’s quietly and calmly taken his lumps as everybody has turned on him at some point and has perservered enough to the point where I’ve promised I’ll never say that somebody else should be starting the playoffs while #30 has a contract with Detroit.  But, when you look back at this whole window of Red Wings dominance, he’s not in the top three of the players you can credit the most for it.  One of them already has his number in the rafters, another currently wears the C and will have his number up there one day.  I’d say #3 won’t get his number retired because he left the Wings (up to you to decide which guy that is).

Ozzie pulls off a cup parade this season though?  All bets are off, he’s in.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/21/09 at 12:38 PM ET

Osgood and fleury had the same problems last year.  They both made stellar saves on shots that ordinarily would’ve been labeled goals but then let in some softies. 

That having been said, Osgood is never “stellar” during the regular season, this season is no exception, and I wonder if it may catch up to the wings this year having to replace some scoring with parts that are less than the sum of last years.  Since Howard hasn’t stepped up his game I’m starting to wonder why they didn’t sign a solid backup like Clemmensen, Danis, Biron, MacDonald, or possibly Esche (not sure if he was under contract in the khl over the summer) to at least push Osgood; instead of some of the free agents they signed.  That would’ve “sured” up the goaltending for the regular season and given some of the AHLers a shot at a roster position over say Williams, Bertuzzi, and May. 

Of course, if Bertuzzi still had snarl they wouldn’t need May.  The team is starting to feel like the place where NHLers go to die…really.

Posted by stoneman from vegas on 10/21/09 at 12:43 PM ET

My favorite line from the article: “But you’re not going to raise Hasek’s No. 39 to the rafters because he wasn’t a Red Wing long enough”.

That is unless he would’ve played in Denver.  Just for you rwhater.

Posted by calquake on 10/21/09 at 01:03 PM ET

The (perhaps unwanted) view from an outsider:

I don’t think you retire his number (given his body of work to this point).  To me, such an honor (regardless of team) should be reserved for those in the history of a franchise whose names you utter with reverence.  Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Richard, Hull (Bobby), Potvin, etc.  There are no-debate HOFers who do not have their numbers in the rafters.  To me, it’s a much more exclusive club than the HHOF.

Is Osgood a great goaltender?  I’d say so, but maybe I’d qualify it as “great big-game goaltender.”  Hall of Famer?  Should be.  Is he one of the all-time greats of the sport, on par with those I mentioned above?  I don’t think he’s had the consistency over the years (esp. during the regular season) to warrant such a classification.

Posted by Blue Meanie from Pittsburgh on 10/21/09 at 01:04 PM ET

For those concerned.. also keep this in mind:

Osgood did not WILLINGLY leave Detroit.  The Wings pushed him out.  It wasn’t like Osgood took money elsewhere and ran.

Posted by Primis on 10/21/09 at 01:05 PM ET

Thank you for posting that so I didn’t have to.  Although in a way I kind of did now…

Anyway, I’d love to see it.  I really would.  I think he deserves it.  But also I don’t think it would be labeled a “travesty” if it didn’t happen.

But my vote would be yes.

Posted by ITDeuce from The Land of Ice and Snow on 10/21/09 at 01:11 PM ET

So long as he’s not cursed with one of those gawd-awful motion-statues…

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 10/21/09 at 01:15 PM ET

If I had to choose between Chris Osgood of ‘08 and ‘09 and Dominik Hasek of ‘02? I"d take #30.

he’s a homegrown clutch goalie with 3 Cups

Think of the number of “elite” goalies that aren’t one but TWO Cups behind Ozzie.

Hall of Famer?  Should be.

Then raise that bitch to the rafters.

Posted by D4LRob on 10/21/09 at 01:23 PM ET

LOFL.  Osmediocre, THE poster goalie for a great team being able to carry a mediocre goalie to a cup or two.

Posted by rwhater from a shack in the Colorado Rockies on 10/21/09 at 01:20 PM ET

Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 10/21/09 at 01:28 PM ET

cal, I agree that it was ludicrous of the Avs to retire Bourque’s number.  Not Osmediocre HoF ludicrous, but ludicrous nonetheless.

Posted by rwhater on 10/21/09 at 01:32 PM ET

cal, I agree that it was ludicrous of the Avs to retire Bourque’s number.  Not Osmediocre HoF ludicrous, but ludicrous nonetheless.

Posted by CONSISTENTLY BOBBING IN BOULDER…WORKING IT on 10/21/09 at 02:32 PM ET

I hate to speak for cal, Darren.  But I’m betting he’s not fond of you trying to be his butt buddy either.

Oh, and fixed.

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 10/21/09 at 01:36 PM ET

One more thing that I guess I’ve been considering but I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone else consider or speak about yet:

The Stud Goalie is dead.

Quick, name a stud, clutch, will-100%-win-it-for-you goalie in the league today.

You can’t.  They’re dead.  They’re all vulnerable on any given night, and opponents never come into town thinking “Geez, how do we beat this guy?”.

The dominant goalie is dead and only going to continue to be so as long as the league cracks down on them and their equipment.

There will be no more Patrick Roys, or Martin Broduers, or Mike Richters, or Dominik Haseks.  NOt even any more Ed Belfours or Olaf Kolzigs.  Not for the forseeable future anyways.  Style has changed, the game and training have changed, and the stud #1 goalie is DEAD if you ask me.

Posted by Primis on 10/21/09 at 01:37 PM ET

cal, I agree that it was ludicrous of the Avs to retire Bourque’s number.  Not Osmediocre HoF ludicrous, but ludicrous nonetheless.
Posted by rwhater on 10/21/09 at 02:32 PM ET

Based on your premise for HoF you must surely agree then that Grant Fuhr doesn’t belong in the Hall either.  Very good goalie but on any other team than the Oilers, not so much.  Same could be said for Billy Smith also.

Posted by calquake on 10/21/09 at 01:39 PM ET

Totally agree with Eno.  And not just cause he’s got a cool name, either.

Posted by mudshark from chained to my desk in snowy Divetown on 10/21/09 at 01:40 PM ET

I hate to speak for cal, Darren.  But I’m betting he’s not fond of you trying to be his butt buddy either.

Speak away Chief… speak away.

Posted by calquake on 10/21/09 at 01:42 PM ET

As a die hard Osgood fan this is an easy one here. I’d have to say yes. Osgood has spent most of career as a Red Wing, was moved to make room for Hasek, took the Islanders to the playoff for the first time in many years, took the Blues too, then the prodigal son returned home.
His numbers, and Cups won, are there in black and white for everyone to read.

I would like to see Ozzie win one more Stanley Cup.If he had pulled #12 off last season, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Bitches.

Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!

Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 10/21/09 at 01:43 PM ET

Posted by Primis on 10/21/09 at 02:37 PM ET

Not argueing, but is this due to, 1) less / lack-of talent today, or b) different rules (i.e. to promote “more goals” for the fan draw / popularity / revenue)?

Posted by stonehands-78 from the beginning ... a WingsFan, on 10/21/09 at 01:45 PM ET

One other general opinion -

I don’t think time spent with another franchise should be an automatic disqualifier for number retirement purposes.  As long as the player spent a significant amount of his career with a franchise (i.e. not Bourque in Denver) and made significant contributions to the franchise, and was otherwise a very elite player, you’ve got to at least consider it.  I’m thinking of situations like Gretzky in LA (had his number not been retired league-wide) or Francis in Pittsburgh (8 years).

Posted by Blue Meanie from Pittsburgh on 10/21/09 at 02:07 PM ET

Posted by Blue Meanie from Pittsburgh on 10/21/09 at 03:07 PM ET

Agreed, otherwise we’d be retiring Hull and Robitaille’s jerseys in Detroit.  A players contributions have to mean something to a franchise and a short stint just doesn’t cut it.

Posted by calquake on 10/21/09 at 02:38 PM ET

Fuhr and Billy Smith?  I see the argument, in that they were lucky to be on two of the most dominant teams in NHL history.  But it was a different era where scoring was more prevalent, and those teams could both light it up, especially the Oil.  I just don’t remember watching those two guys and thinking, “Man, they aren’t very good.  Are they ever lucky that they hardly ever see a decent scoring chance against them.”  Like I have done with Ozzie over the years.

Imo, the Ozzie we saw last Saturday night is pretty much the Ozzie I’ve seen for many years.  The same guy the Wings try to replace in net almost every year.  Until this season .... which is strange.

Posted by rwhater on 10/21/09 at 02:43 PM ET

I say no, I feel that the accomplishments of the 6 retired jerseys hanging from the rafters at the Joe are the benchmark for what requires a jersey to be retired. As well, I look at the impacts that 1, 7, 9, 10, 12 and 19 had on the organization, and I don’t feel that Ozzie fits that mold. He’s a HOF’er in my eyes, but I believe that a jersey retirement from the Wings is the highest honor the club can give, and no slight to Ozzie but I feel that he just doesn’t measure up to those other guys.

Posted by OHWingsFan40 from Oregon/Bowling Green, OH on 10/21/09 at 03:10 PM ET

It won’t be immediate, but Osgood and Fedorov seem very likely to join Yzerman, et. al. down the line.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 10/21/09 at 03:11 PM ET

... the kind of discussion you have in October when it’s been 4 days since your team stunk up the joint by giving one away and the next chance at redemption is still 30 hours distant.

I am still too preoccupied with the state of the current version of the team to worry about something so distant, and irrelevant compared to winning in Phoenix Thursday October 22, 2009 against the league leading defense at 1.43 GAA, which is an incredible full 2.00 goals better than Detroyet at 3.43,  with a 5x5 rating of 2.00:1 compared to the Wings 5x5 rating of 0.59.

The only 6 teams with a 5x5 GF:GA worse than Detroit have a combined W-L record of 8-28 and includes stalwarts FL, NSV, NYI, TOR and other likely non playoff teams.  Not very good company we are keeping.

In case anyone’s watching, we are in 11th place in the West 3 points out of the playoffs.

Other than against the Red Wings, StL BBBB are 1-3-1 for an impressive 30% of possible points.  But luckily for the BBB, games agaynst Detroyet DO count in the standings.

Still in a pissy mood!  Hells Ya! Where’s Marsha Brady when I need her?  Sing to me, Bitch!

“I think I’ll go outside for a walk now, the summer sun’s calling my name” (exclamation point)

...nope, that ain’t doin’ it either….

Posted by RWBill from the Land of 12 in 12. on 10/21/09 at 03:33 PM ET

One other perspective you can use to evaluate Osgood’s number-retirement-worthiness - here is the list of all the goaltenders in league history whose numbers are retired:

Ken Dryden
Tony Esposito
Grant Fuhr
Eddie Giacomin
Glen Hall
Bernie Parent
Jacques Plante
Mike Richter
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk
Billy Smith
Mike Vernon
Rogie Vachon

Preemptively you can put Martin Brodeur on the list, too.

Otherwise, that’s it.  Does Osgood’s name get put on that list without raising many eyebrows?

Posted by Blue Meanie from Pittsburgh on 10/21/09 at 03:37 PM ET

Wow, as the commercial says, this is a Tuffy.

So many MSM hacks were clamoring all playoffs and especially in the Finals that if Osgood wins a cup, he’s a shoo-in for the HOF.

I still think he’s a shoo-in but all these detractors against him now with “he won bc of the team in front of him” and other crap, hell my dad still talks about “Remember when he let in that goal from McInnis from the red line?”

Primis is right though, all those “big time” goalies never won one here, Ozzy has 3. I say why not raise his number, or at the very least, find some way to honor the guys that got us where we are today. STILL the premiere franchise in the NHL.

Posted by FranzensMouthguard from Chicago, IL on 10/21/09 at 03:57 PM ET

Imo, the Ozzie we saw last Saturday night is pretty much the Ozzie I’ve seen for many years.  The same guy the Wings try to replace in net almost every year.  Until this season .... which is strange.
Posted by rwhater on 10/21/09 at 03:43 PM ET

I’m guessing you didn’t watch this years play-offs because your team didn’t make it.  And you didn’t watch last year’s play-offs, because you were too busy crying about getting your a$$ handed to you.

Ozzie has been lights out in the play-offs the past two seasons.  Would you rather have a great regular season goalie who folds in the play-offs (Nabakov, Theodore, etc.) or a guy like Ozzie who can struggle through the regular season but play STFU hockey when it really matters?

...don’t answer that.  We all know the logical choice. 

HOF? Yes.  Number in the rafters?  Maybe.  Not Sergei though, George.  He was my hero…still don’t hate him.  But I doubt the Wings will retire the number of someone who gets (got) booed everytime he came back to the Joe.

Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 10/21/09 at 04:36 PM ET

Osgood is our last successful homegrown goaltender. He’s won 3 Stanley Cups with us. He sat behind Vernon during the playoffs of ‘97, but he shared the William Jennings with him that season. Also, during that summer, the organization made the decision to trade Vernon and go with Ozzie. Talk about pressure. And he did it. I don’t listen to the crap about “they won in spite of him,” mostly because of Dallas. The organization has always stood behind Osgood. They only gave him up because they had a chance to get Dominik Hasek. No one here is going to try to argue that at that time, Hasek wasn’t a better option than Osgood. During the lockout, he reworked his game. And when the Wings needed someone reliable to back up, they turned back to Osgood. And he delivered much more than was ever expected in the form of the 2008 Stanley Cup. He wasn’t supposed to be a starter here again, and yet here we are. Three Conference Finals in a row, one Stanley Cup, and one that got away. Now, he’s being trusted with the job of grooming the next homegrown talent. Look at it any way you want, but I say he deserves it.

Posted by MrsOtW from Wyoming, Mi on 10/21/09 at 04:36 PM ET

He’s earned it, in my opinion. The Cups, the numbers… it won’t be unanimous among fans and media, and he could have a tough time getting into the Hall—but on the balance, I do think he belongs in the rafters. But of course, another Cup run would remove all doubt.

Posted by Bio on 10/21/09 at 04:45 PM ET

The mere fact that it’s not unanimous among fans with an IQ above 80 means that he shouldn’t have his number retired.  That’s how important I think having a number retired is.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/21/09 at 05:13 PM ET

Dammit.  I think he belongs up there, but I really can’t argue with J.J. I think another question isn’t whether everyone agrees that he belongs up there but once it is announced that it is happening, will any fans with said IQ vocally second guess that decision? If the answer is no, then hang that b***h up.

Also, what were his corsi numbers and ERA?

Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 10/21/09 at 05:34 PM ET

Well, he did look pretty good in the shootout the other night as well.  Heck yes!  Raise his number to the rafters!  It would be a good laugh. 

Yzerman.  Sawchuk.  Delvecchio.  Lindsay.  Abel.  Howe.  Osgood.  LOFL!  It’s like playing the old “one of these things just doesn’t belong here” game.  Change the name below the number to “Sore Thumb” while you’re at it.

Hey 19, why don’t they acknowledge Aurie and Konstantinov in the rafters?

Posted by rwssuck on 10/21/09 at 05:57 PM ET

Hey 19, why don’t they acknowledge Aurie and Konstantinov in the rafters?
Posted by rwssuck posted from Denver bobbing with RWHater on 10/21/09 at 06:57 PM ET

Fixed.

Posted by MOWingsfan19 on 10/21/09 at 06:29 PM ET

I vote present.

I will say, I am a definite “no” on Hossa .....  the Av’s precedent notwithstanding.

Posted by Rumbear from Top O da Hasek, sippin rum & catchin some rays on 10/21/09 at 06:29 PM ET

Osgood….HOF, sure, based on career numbers. Once he retires, a nice job in the organization, if he desires. Hell, give him a luxury box, and keys to the building. He’s earned it.

Sweater in the rafters???
Not so much.

Posted by dougie on 10/21/09 at 06:34 PM ET

I say sure.

Regardless of time with other teams, he was sent away and happiest to be back, the majority of his career was with Detroit, his best years by far were with the team, and he had a level of success playing in the Detroit colors that most goaltenders never even approach.  And with the death of the stud goalie, I can’t see that happening ever again, either, as a goaltender that has won a team a Cup will not get a chance to win another as soon as he falls off slightly and a young inexpensive goalie takes his place, because he may be a flash-in-the-pan, but as long as the flash lasts a couple months, that will be good enough.

Put that number up there.  Nothing is gained by being so stingy that no one can meet the standards set, but setting them high enough that it is difficult is an entirely different matter.

(And there are fans even with plenty high IQ’s who are still idiots.  Unanimity is a myth.)

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 10/21/09 at 06:52 PM ET

Ken Dryden
Tony Esposito
Grant Fuhr
Eddie Giacomin
Glen Hall
Bernie Parent
Jacques Plante
Mike Richter
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk
Billy Smith
Mike Vernon
Rogie Vachon

Posted by Blue Meanie from Pittsburgh on 10/21/09 at 04:37 PM ET

IMO I think Ozzy could hang with Richter, Vernon and Vachon (I’ve seen all three goalies look incredibly average at times as well), not to mention Chris Osgood is 1-1 against Patrick Roy in WCFs.  I agree that (compared to some of the goalies on this list) the mention of Osgood would raise eyebrows, but he was there for three cups.  As for the Red Wings and what he meant to them, he came to Detroit when Tim Cheveldae was getting booed nightly and he brought confidence to a very frustrated team/franchise and had a lot to do with the teams turnaround.  With that, he should get his jersey retired.

Posted by Gumby from the city with more ruins than Rome on 10/21/09 at 07:03 PM ET