Please don’t comment on this post.  I’m embarrassed.

Sorry, but you shouldn’t be.  YOU didn’t bring it up.

...“told by members of Detroit’s Swedes”…

That’s funny.  It makes them sound like a cartel that runs the team from behind the scenes.  It also makes it sound like they don’t have any independent thought, but share a collective intelligence like the Borg.  It also presumes all Swedes get along and like each other.  I wonder if any of them left Sweden to avoid other Swedes?

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 11:23 AM ET

Or zero intelligence like Bjorn Borg.  Forsberg, you’ll recall Baroque, was rumored here based on his mythical relationships with the Wings Swedes.  Turns out none of them like him all that much.

Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 12/02/07 at 11:26 AM ET

Id give up Kindl, his olay has regressed badly this year.  He’s stinking it up in Grand Rapids, I know it takes years for defensemen especially to develop, but his defense is awful, and he’s very soft and easily rattled.  If the Wings were short on prospects and didn’t have guys like Quincey and Ericsson waiting for a call up, I wouldn’t want to deal him and would wait it out.

Posted by bababooey on 12/02/07 at 11:55 AM ET

Yeah, I remember.  Supposedly he was close friends with Lidstrom until Nick himself said he didn’t know him that well because they really didn’t play together that often.

Just because Sweden is a smaller country than the US doesn’t mean that everyone knows everyone else.

Although I shouldn’t talk much.  I would be quite possibly the world’s worst GM because I wouldn’t want to trade anyone, ever.  I like the players on the team and don’t want to get rid of them - especially not for a rental of a still very good, but also expensive and near the end of his career player.

I also wonder how well his stats would transfer to the Western conference anyway.  The Eastern conference has the offense with Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Lecavalier, Heatley, etc. etc., and the Western conference has the defense to really slow them down.  Would he still score against the defenses of the West at the same pace - especially coming to a new team and having to get used to new teammates?  It usually takes time to adjust, and a trade-deadline deal doesn’t leave much time for it.  Most of the time it takes an entire training camp to really get some coherence as a team.

I say they don’t do it.  Definitely not now, and probably not later, either.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 11:56 AM ET

Baroque is right on a number of levels. Most important is her use of a Star Trek reference (the Borg) in her comment. This rumor is going where no one has gone before, and for damn good reason…

Whatever happened to Federov coming home? Wasn’t that a cause Strothers endorsed?

Posted by srt on 12/02/07 at 12:09 PM ET

Whatever happened to Federov coming home? Wasn’t that a cause Strothers endorsed?

I think that was when Columbus was supposed to lose 60 games.  Now that they are respectable, why wouldn’t he want to stay?

He had a good game last night, too.  Second star and skated very well.

Most important is her use of a Star Trek reference (the Borg) in her comment.

Years ago, I used to play role-playing-games (NOT D&D;, though) and went to a few conventions.  One of my favorite t-shirts that I saw at one convention was printed with “I am Homer of Borg.  Prepare to be assimila - ooh, donuts!”

Star Trek and the Simpsons in one comedic comment. 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 12:36 PM ET

...“told by members of Detroit’s Swedes”…

Hmmmm...an angry mob of Swedes or a lovable bunch of hockey mopes?
First the hugging story and now this. I am getting really confused.  Maybe I need a hug?!  One thought though, perhaps all these “talks” between Scotty and the Leafs over these past few are having some other implications.....I’m just asking.

and now back to our regularly scheduled goalie controversy....tick - tock.

Posted by Rumbear from Cold & Rainy Diego on 12/02/07 at 12:51 PM ET

In my opinion, the Wings do not have all that much NHL-caliber talent in their farm system.  What talent they DO have is precious to them.  The dealing-away of Mathias last March for Bertuzzi will haunt them in a couple years. 
That deal should be a lesson well-learned.

Not that getting Sundin would be a bad thing.  On the contrary, I think it would be super.  Unfortunately, other teams can better afford the high cost in young talent.

Posted by w2j2 on 12/02/07 at 01:05 PM ET

Agreed.  They have done very, very well with late-round picks, but it would have been nice sometime to have talent that was closer to a sure thing.

Of course, they might have gotten Ryan Leaf instead of Peyton Manning anyway.  I think we could all do without that.

It really does seem to take a full year for a new player to get fully integrated into a system, though.  Probably the best way to deal with a trade is getting someone at the deadline who isn’t really necessary to the team’s playoff hopes, but won’t cost any roster players and will pay dividends for the next couple years.  Trade deadline deals last year didn’t really improve the teams who obtained roster players, but the teams that grabbed young unproven talent and picks are going to do far better in the next few years, if they play their cards right.

I guess I better stop stalling and shovel the driveway before the freezing rain hits and the gunk tossed up by the plow is set like concrete.  At least I don’t have to go out anywhere today, so I can stay off the roads.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 01:14 PM ET

A preposterous concept, I have to agree with IWO, and Baroque.

One thing that seems a little odd about this, is the timing.

If you read Mr Garrioch’s column you see no reference to recent scores or performances.

There are also whispers here at hockeytowntodd (voices inside my head), that this piece is rather mitch-like and written earlier in the week before Toronto put together back to back wins.  Quite possible this Bruce-guy has not been available for the last few days.

Posted by HockeyTownTodd from upset when blogs don�t live up to my expectations on 12/02/07 at 01:37 PM ET

It’d be a shame to see Hudler go if this trade does somehow happen. He’s been playing really well, especially considering the limited playing time he gets. And he hasn’t been around six thousand years, unlike Mats Sundin. Although, we are lacking for rivalries, maybe stealing Sundin from Toronto would be a good way to get one going.

Posted by scheisskopf from Baltimore, Maryland on 12/02/07 at 02:34 PM ET

If the Wings give up Filppula or Hudler, they are insane!

Posted by C3091 on 12/02/07 at 03:53 PM ET

If the Wings need to/want to give up a defensive prospect in this type of trade, I’m in. The only spot they have right now where they’ve got total organizational depth is defenseman. With that said (and I thought I’d never say this), they can’t trade Hudler. There isn’t enough young depth up front. Sure, the Wings will no doubt be major players in the RFA and UFA markets every off-season, so they will bring in at least one star in his prime to subsidize things, but depth is still important.

If the Wings can get permission to talk to Sundin and get him to agree to a contract extension as a part of the deal, then it’s more intriguing. Sundin probably has 2 good years left after this one, and with the core the team has now, that could result in a Cup or two (again, especially enhancing the team in the off-season).

Posted by Nathan on 12/02/07 at 04:25 PM ET

Trading away Hudler and a prospect and a pick for a rental, any rental, is a really bad idea.  The only way it makes any sense at all is if, as Nathan mentions, Sundin comes over and signs an immediate extension for a second year.

It’s not that Hudler is amazing or anything, but in a capped environment you just can’t move three young entry level contracted options for one short term fix without being 100% sure adding Sundin wins you a Cup… and I don’t see how anyone could be sure.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/02/07 at 07:21 PM ET

Do they really have that much depth in defensemen, though?  They seem to take a longer time to develop (maybe therefore being harder to predict or project them when young) and good puck-moving defensemen are always in demand, so it might be worth having an excess in the same way a baseball team can’t have too much pitching.

If the Wings give up Filppula or Hudler, they are insane!

Not necessarily.  If Evgeni Malkin was available it might be worth it.

But yes, I agree that it would be a very poor move to trade young, improving, inexpensive players for older, still good, but expensive players.  I mean, that is Toronto Maple Leaf thinking.  Especially with a salary cap, you can’t afford to chuck the economical players.  The only way you can afford to pay stars the large contracts is by having economical players to surround them with so you don’t have a diamond surrounded by poop.  You can’t win that way.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 07:25 PM ET

I think there may be a lot fewer rentals this year, anyway.  Anyone with half a functioning brain saw how “well” the big acquisitions worked out last season, and how little anything is guaranteed in the playoffs.  It might make more sense to just roll the dice and trust the guys you have had the entire year, and wait until after the season to address holes and weak spots.  Maybe even wait until training camp to see if a rookie or tryout comes out of nowhere for small contract dollars to fill a hole.

I don’t think the lack of trades during the season is necessarily a bad thing.  I can’t imagine the players themselves want to make it easier to get sent elsewhere, or they wouldn’t fight so hard for no-trade-clauses if they really like the environment - and it certainly hasn’t limited the rumours any!  I’d rather see a player develop over the course of the season without getting tossed from one team to another and having to start over learning a new system and new teammates.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 07:35 PM ET

I agree, it doesn’t hurt to have too many defenseman, like pitchers (good analogy, by the way). My point is simply that’s the spot that you feel best about trading away at this point. Grand Rapids isn’t exactly stellar up front since the departure of their four best forwards over the last two seasons.

HD, I have to dispute your comment about a rental being a sure thing. The way the game is now, and has been even before the lockout, I don’t think there is any single player that any team can bring in and essentially punch their ticket to the finals, let alone etch their names on the Cup. So, you have to take a risk at some point. I’m not saying that it’s worth it in this case, just making a point.

I stand by the idea with an extension. If the Wings can work into the trade agreement that Sundin has to sign a two-year extension, then I think it’s very intriguing, though I’d have to say I’d rather just give up the first rounder, because Sundin would be best served if you could put Hudler on his wing.

Posted by Nathan on 12/02/07 at 07:56 PM ET

Thanks for the info, Nathan.  I don’t follow Grand Rapids, so I didn’t know about their defense - I had noticed they were struggling a bit with losing guys upwards.

Sundin and Hudler on the same line...hmmm…

Sundin really enjoys Toronto, though, so I can’t see him moving.  It’s probably a moot point, although interesting to think about nonetheless.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/02/07 at 09:22 PM ET

Yowza...talk about coming to the conversation late…

I genuinely don’t give this rumour any merit whatsoever.  If there’s anything that Mats Sundin could have and possibly should have done over the last five seasons, it’s leave Toronto, and if he were to relent and leave the place he calls his “home,” there’s no way that the Leafs would do anything less than say, “See that Tkachuk/Guerin precident?  You know, a promising roster player, a promising prospect or two, and multiple early-round draft picks?  Yeah, we want that.” Given that Sundin is a much more consistent player and has accomplished much more in his NHL career, I’d imagine that it’d be more like, “A Tkachuk and a half, please.”

Kenny would do what any sane person would if he were to kick the tires--laugh and hang up the phone. 

The Matthias trade was a calculated gamble, and KH lost it--at least as far as this season is concerned.  It stuns me that we forget how young these kids are--guys who develop as fast as Filppula are the exception, and a more Kronwall-like or Hudler-like learning curve is very common, around a 5-7 year time period from drafting to the point of establishing oneself as a regular NHL player, so when you’re talking about even Matthias, much less Kindl, we’ll have to wait a few years before we see whether Matthias’s dominant season in the OHL is anything more than that. 

Scouting has become more advanced since the days when it was thought that Jason Bonsignore was going to be the next Mario Lemieux, but it’s still educated guessing, and that certain sequence of physical development, development of a professional dedication to fitness and readiness to play, evolution of one’s playing ability to an ever-higher pace, and mentally growing up into an adult professional athlete who’s willing to put his worries aside a the locker room door, that’s a complicated dance.  If it wasn’t, Norm Maracle, Darryl Laplante, and dozens of other “He’s gonna be a player” guys would be NHL stalwarts.

All of that being said...The Griffins stink this year--they’ve got AHL vets in Cullen, Corazzini, Hartigan, Berkhoel, Stafford, Oulahen, and kids, kids, kids, most of whom aren’t familiar with one another--and Kindl still projects to be a Fischer-like puckhandler (Fisch was actually an offensive defenceman who could lug the puck, if one recalls) with a less nasty physical game.  Defencemen are on an even longer “develompent timeline” than forwards (goalies are the longest), so it’s really hard to project where he’s going to be in five years, but that kind of talent, you don’t trade away.

I think that the playoff picture will sort itself out as the season goes on, parity included, and it’s just not the Wings’ M.O. to do much more than continue to look for a second-line point producer, preferably a guy with size and a physical bite, and a solid defensive defenceman, and if they don’t find somebody who can be acquired for a decent prospect and a pick, they won’t acquire anybody.  Hudler and Filppula are part of the braintrust’s plan, and I don’t see them being moved unless someone who’s both Sundin-talented and under 35 is made available. 

I don’t think that the Wings’ Swedes are all meeting at IKEA (everybody but Hank lives on the West Side, you know, so that’s why it’s in Canton), eating lingonberry jam and plotting as to how they can establish a Swedish mega-collective here in Detroit.  Not that they wouldn’t mind…

But I just don’t see the Wings doing anything like this.  All Matheson did was write a Toronto fan’s dream trade, and Garrioch stoked the fire enough that we’re going to hear about how the Red Wings are going to trade Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Gordie Howe’s Elbows, and two thirds of the yearly revenues from the MotorCity Casino to Toronto for Larry Murphy’s old stinky hockey socks (and a Mironov to be named later) on Toronto’s sports talk radio for the next week.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 12/03/07 at 02:11 AM ET

HD, I have to dispute your comment about a rental being a sure thing.

Me:

you just can’t move three young entry level contracted options for one short term fix without being 100% sure adding Sundin wins you a Cup… and I don’t see how anyone could be sure.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/03/07 at 05:06 AM ET

Defencemen are on an even longer “develompent timeline” than forwards (goalies are the longest), so it’s really hard to project where he’s going to be in five years, but that kind of talent, you don’t trade away.

That’s what I was trying to get to with my analogy to pitchers.  If you have something that everyone else wants, you don’t get rid of it unless you are darn sure that you really, really have more than enough - and then you still keep extra just in case.

I don’t see it happening, I just thought it was an interesting idea.  It would be really, really jarring to see Sundin in any other uniform - he just is so associated with Toronto that I can’t even picture it, even in a fantasy world.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/03/07 at 07:16 AM ET

As always, George makes great points. Obviously, today we know Sundin really has no desire to leave. I still think it’s only worth it in the perfect circumstance (contract extension, no giving up a current roster forward).

Posted by Nathan on 12/03/07 at 08:55 AM ET

Baroque, Nathan, I didn’t mean to sound like a negative Nancy--we don’t get many trade rumours around here that are less than shut down by the Wings’ big braintrust (it’s pretty amusing when the reporters go down the line: Holland?  “No, you know, with the salary cap and parity and the CBA, it’s hard to make trades.” Nill?  “No.” Devellano?  “No, though we were interested in [insert juicy player name here] six months ago.” Yzerman?  “No.” Bowman?  “No.” McCammon?  “No.” Howe?  “No.” Babcock?  “Absolutely no truth whatsoever.” )--It’s just the fact that Laff Land will assume that the Wings want to trade 3/4ths of the roster for Mats Sundin’s left skate that has me on edge.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 12/03/07 at 01:00 PM ET

With a guy like this, we won’t know what happens until it does.

Did anyone know Smyth was going to the Island before it happened? I never, and I can’t recall seeing it on any sites before it was reported by TSN, Sportnet, etc..

Its just as well to forget about it until the trade deadline passes by or he is traded.

Posted by Danny on 12/03/07 at 02:54 PM ET

Even if Sundin was willing to sign a 2 year contract there’s still one glaring problem.  We need cap space in the near future for Hank and Lids.  Cutting Flip or Hudler’s salaries out wouldn’t quite make up the difference.

Posted by Dahrken from Grand Rapids on 12/03/07 at 03:04 PM ET

Yeah, I don’t see this happening unless Mats brings JFJ’s head with him because I believe he would be decapitated if he traded Mats.

Chief, I TiVoed (is that a verb?) your HNIC appearance, I am looking forward to watching it.

Posted by hockeychic from Denver, CO on 12/03/07 at 04:31 PM ET

Yeah, I don’t see this happening unless Mats brings JFJ’s head with him because I believe he would be decapitated if he traded Mats.

If that was the trade-off I wonder how many Leaf fans would vote in favor of a trade! 

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 12/03/07 at 05:17 PM ET

bring back Darren McCarty!

just kidding.

Posted by cowboycoffee from San Francisco on 12/04/07 at 06:53 PM ET