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You Want A Controversy? Check This Out
by IwoCPO on 02/17/09 at 12:34 PM ET
Comments (63)
So. I mosied on over to Spector’s a few minutes ago and took this one out for a spin.
SPECTOR’S NOTE: If Hossa and Franzen are re-signed kiss Hudler, Samuelsson and Conklin goodbye, and don’t expect to see Chris Chelios back. I don’t blame Holland for trying to keep both and they might accept less than market value to remain with the Wings, but I hope they don’t make the mistake of some other notable teams in investing too much money on too many big ticket players and leave themselves without enough for depth throughout the roster.
That’s our friend Lyle Richardson in response to the Freep and the News’ reports that trade winds could be a-blowin’ and that they could be Lightfoot-like in strength but neither goalie is going anywhere.
Oh, I’m sure he’s right. Logic says that if Z, Hoss and Mule all stay…the Cap and Gary and reality all tell us somebody else has to go. I know. I know.
But I do have a couple of thoughts that may irritate a few of you. One in particular may make you question my ability to think clearly, or think at all.
We’ve hinted at this one a few times today. Mark W., Chris and Sadie all mentioned it in the comments of this amazingly lucid offering, and here’s the idea: do we really need to keep Franzen? If given the choice, wouldn’t all of us pick Hossa and Hudler?
Hossa’s talent is remarkable. It’s better than we expected and it’s unlike any other in the league, really. While Ovechkin may have an equal wrist shot and even greater scoring potential, he doesn’t have Hossa’s defensive hunger or hustle…yet. While Zetterberg may have that same awareness, he doesn’t have the strength or speed. Is he better than those two? Not necessarily and maybe not better than Datsyuk either, just a different skill set.
Crosby? Well, he’s just a little bitch and doesn’t compare to any of them any way.
And really, Franzen? Straight up there’s no valid comparison between the two. You don’t have to admit it if you’d rather not, but we all know it by now. Choose one and it’s Hossa.
But it’s not that simple. There’s a chance Tick Tock can keep ‘em both, as many have pointed out. But at what cost? If he signs both, does that mean goodbye to Samuelsson, Hudler and a very important Conk?
Samuelsson? Leino. Cancel him out. We like Sammy, in a perverted, sick way. But we’ll take Leino, thanks for asking.
Oompa? Not so easy now is it? We’ve watched this kid grow in this organ-I-zation. I’ve practically sobbed for two straight deadlines, begging Tick Tock to just trade him anywhere. Please. Naturally, he refused and now we have a kid who could be a top six forward on any team in the league.
And we want to keep him. Thanks, again, for asking.
But how? Well. I’ll be your huckleberry.
Here we go.
Lebda. UFA after next year? .850. Gone. Ericsson: Up.
Chelios. Gone. Kindl: Up.
Defensive pairings look like this:
Lidstrom/Rafalski
Kronwall/Kindl
Ericsson/Stuart
Meech
Update—Update—Update: Alzy just made a keen observation. Where’s Lilja? Damn right. That big bastard’s not going anywhere. My how the worm has frigging turned. In my opinion, he’s been our third best defenseman this year (maybe second). He’s staying. Kindl or Meech? You may have to leave. I’m just sayin’.
Sammy? Gone. Maltby? We’ll give you a nice little tribute, one you seriously deserve, later. But for now? Gone. Kopecky? If necessary, if it means getting Helm up here? Gone. Downey and McCarty? Gone. Only UFA the Wings re-sign? Franzen.
Did I forget one? Oh. Yep. Conk?
Gone.
You too Ozzie. You’re gone as well.
I don’t know how, released, waived, traded. Whatever. Delude yourselves into thinking this year’s a fluke. Go ahead. Me? See ya. Again, we value what you’ve brought, but seriously…it’s time to move on. As we say in other organizations, it may be time to retire with your dignity intact. Cold? Yes, dammit. I know. But as with Malts…his time in the honorable sun will come.
Where’s that leave us? Yes indeed. You wanted a controversy? I’ll give you one. It’ll be a frigging stress orgy in this place. Figured it out didn’t you?
Yep. A two-headed all rookie tandem of fetal-position-inducing, thumb-sucking, start drinking at 0900 and don’t stop until the neighbors call the vet because your wails of pain sound like baby lambs crying for milk from a mommy who’s too busy knitting her own wool because watching a team with two rookie goalies has driven her certifiably insane (you can rack that bitch).
My recommendation for goaltenders in ‘09/‘10: Howard and Larsson. Let ‘em duke it out in TC, only to prove who gets the opening night start. Then go ahead and rotate them through 1 March. Use that as your drop-dead name your starter date and roll the frigging dice. Two away games in San Jose, and you know those games will be big NEXT year? Split them up. Back to back nights in December? Sure. Any test you can find for each of them Uncle Mike. Run ‘em through the wringer and see who comes out ahead at the end of February.
And then it’s trial by fire in the playoffs. Nuts. Absolutely insane.
And an absolute blast to watch go down, wouldn’t it be?
Would the money work out? I don’t know. I think so. I haven’t done the cipherin’. But I’ll bet it would.
Keep Franzen. Keep Hossa. Keep Oompa. Bring the kids up, all of them…and let’s see where it takes us. Yeah…I’m talking rookies in goal, two of them on defense, at least two of them up front if you want to call Helm, Leino and Home Keys rookies.
Fire away.
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Honestly, almost nothing is more amusing (bemusing? disgusting? depressing?) than watching a teams fans come up with line combinations and roster plans.
Look, no player with a multi-year contract is getting traded. Not Fil, not Cleary, not Kronwall… just stop it. It will never ever happen. Ever. Never ever ever. Evvvvvvvvvvver.
At most, at absolute most, what we’re looking at is a depth dman (Lebda, Meech or Chelios), Franzen, Hudler and Sammy out, with Ericsson, Helm, Leino, and a replacement scrub (500ish thousand) in. And Conklin for Howard.
That’s it. That the most players who could concievably turn over this year. If Hossa doesn’t re-sign it’s more than possible he’s the only forward who isn’t back.
These scenarios where 5 or 6 forwards are coming or going and lines are being shuffled all over the place are way, way exaggerated. Hossa and Franzen are the only top 6 guys in jeopardy, and Detroit will bring at least one of them back. Past that… it’s not terribly important.
Posted by HockeyinHD on 02/17/09 at 08:06 PM ET
Look, no player with a multi-year contract is getting traded. Not Fil, not Cleary, not Kronwall… just stop it. It will never ever happen. Ever. Never ever ever. Evvvvvvvvvvver.
Agreed. And if I recall correctly, most have no-trade/ no-movement clauses precisely because they chose to take less and stay with us. While those clauses might not mean much in Toronto, they mean a hell of a lot here; we’re a players organization and there is no way Holland is going to risk even the slightest dent in that reputation.
Great post IWO, and great comments all around.
Posted by Osrt on 02/17/09 at 10:27 PM ET
A Holmstrom retirement also wouldn’t exactly hurt Detroit since Dan Cleary is now doing Homer’s job in front of the net and doesn’t carry the reputation around with him that gets him called for phantom penalties and gets genuine goals waved off.
Posted by HockeyJoe from Upstate New York on 02/17/09 at 10:41 PM ET
Joe…Clears isn’t Homer. Sure he gets there, but he doesn’t have the…“talent”...Holmstrom does in pissing the netminder and opposing d-men off…
Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 02/17/09 at 10:51 PM ET
BANG ON! Totally agree. Hossa is just too good of a fit to let walk!
Posted by Ryan from Toronto on 02/18/09 at 12:28 AM ET
Crosby owns this blog. You can’t even hold a Wings’ cap discussion without bringing him up. Almost as pitiful as Philly fans. Just get a life-size poster, a room, and get it over with.
Posted by Observer from Center Ice on 02/18/09 at 01:05 AM ET
OMG——CHIEF
Two rookie goalies???
Insane? Brillant?
I don’t know but I’m headed to the local Oklahoma City ER for a preemptive measure against the stomach ulcer’s (at least here I wont have to wait in line, versus my local Detroit ER).
We would have to find an old rickety red wagon and tie it onto the back of the Hasek and call it the ROOK, ride at your own risk…..
But if it means watching Osgood elsewhere….I’m in!
Posted by BP29er from In a TeePee skinnin' me some Blackhawk on 02/18/09 at 02:56 AM ET
Crosby owns this blog. You can’t even hold a Wings’ cap discussion without bringing him up. Almost as pitiful as Philly fans. Just get a life-size poster, a room, and get it over with.
Posted by Observer from Center Ice on 02/18/09 at 01:05 AM ET
Get what over with? Blowing the well-deserved “C” off his chest with a shotgun?
Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 02/18/09 at 07:26 AM ET
Here is an excellent website for all this discussion about cap space and contract terms that maybe some of you don´t know (there are also great reviews about our prospects): http://www.redwingscentral.com/features/orgchart.php
I don´t want to start speculating about next year as there are just too many scenarii to cover. I just hope we manage to get Hossa at a fair cap hit.
On the goalie front, i´d like to see the Conk back as he´s been pretty solid this year (sorry could not resist…)
Posted by yannick on 02/18/09 at 08:35 AM ET
Rafalski is 35. Will be 37 when the 2011 season starts. He has 3 cups, and a chance at another this year. He’s also playing in the shadow of an all-time great and doesn’t have to be the rock he’d need to be without Lidstrom. He’s also tiny. Small guys don’t last as long.
I would love to see him around in 2011 but I don’t really see it happening. Hopefully I will be wrong.
Least number of games he’s played in a season is 69. Not Nick Lidstrom durable, but not injury prone, either. Especially for a small guy. I think by 2011 he will be playing next to Ericsson—someone that’s big and physical and can balance his small size as offensive mind. Heck, he could even continue to play effectively with the stay-at-home Lilja. That pair has been pretty good the last couple weeks.
Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 02/18/09 at 09:00 AM ET
Nathan this is pro sports, and I think you are too attached to Kronner, Lebs, and Stuart.
2/3 of the league has no-trade clauses, but faced with being picked up on waivers, most
will waive so they don’t wind up in a no-hockey zone. Hanging onto these guys is the reason
we lost Quincey. What is the point in developing players if you are going to give them away?
Todd, you don’t even explain yourself or address the REASONS I listed as to WHY those players will stay around. I mean, if you want to just ask rhetorical questions and be “mysterious”... cool…
Bottom line is you don’t trade any parts of value during a season when you still have a legit shot at winning a Cup. You need as many pieces as possible, especially on defense.
Unless they get equal value in return for trading a player like Kronwall, it’s just plain stupid to trade him, because despite his mediocre play this season, he has improved of late, and is a tried-and-true piece of Red Wing playoff success.
Want to talk about trading him in the offseason? Fair enough, but I maintain that if the Wings trade Kronwall for picks/prospects, it’s a real blow to the future of this team’s defense, because either they’ll be losing a guy that could fully develop into a rock on the backline, or it will be an admission that the guy they expected to be a top-pair player just plain will never be that guy. Either way, it indicates bad things for the future. In this way, the Wings are sort of tied to him.
With Stuart, even if we ignore his NTC, you would be trading away one of only two-ish physical presences on the blue line. If you have a value-for-value trade, and get a similar physical blueliner in return, great, but the types of teams that would trade for Stuart are the types of teams that want to augment their defense, not swap parts.
And with Lebda, I’ve said a dozen times in this post. If you can trade him for any asset, and avoid exposing him and/or Meech to waivers next season and losing them for nothing, then do it. But AGAIN, in a playoff run, you need to be careful dealing a player like Lebda, because the teams that will look to sign him are those than know he’s got an expiring deal and see him as the hand-in-glove fit for that 6th/7th D-man role. Are you going to give that guy to San Jose? Dallas? Yes, he’s not that good, but the last thing you need to do is give direct competition extra depth, in the process sacrificing your own. Now if by some crazy chance Florida wants to throw a 5th round pick this way for Lebda at the deadline? Or some other bottom-half of the playoff chase east team? Sure, take the pick and run.
Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 02/18/09 at 09:16 AM ET
The youth movement? Hell Chief, you said that about our defensive core two seasons ago. Did they listen to you? Ask Quincey.
Posted by AndrewFromAnnArbor from Fortress Europe on 02/18/09 at 10:38 AM ET
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There’s more than numbers to consider. Look at Fillpula. He’s good defensively, an obviously good skater, and he’s a center. However, it’s clear he’s been asked to shoot more, but he continues to ignore this advice and try to play a game that he’s not suited to. In addition, he continues to be knocked off his skates with relative ease. (Remember when Datsyuk was the same way? Have others heard what I’ve heard about Pavel - that he “lives” in the weight room after games? Isn’t the physical nature of his game during the past 12 months a pleasant surprise?) Makes you wonder about Fil’s hunger. Is he really worth $3M with the talent waiting in line behind him?
It’s going to be fascinating to watch this all play out.
Posted by Lurker on 02/17/09 at 07:53 PM ET