I think Toronto fans are a perfect example of how disconnected from reality the average Canadian can get.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/17/09 at 11:22 AM ET

I’ve never read anything that says New York doesn’t deserve Tavares. I think Botta is confusing people claiming Tavares may not want to join a team whose arena is a dump, franchise is a complete mess, and whose owner is publicly saying that buying the team was a mistake with people claiming that the Islanders fans don’t deserve him.

If anything the NYI fans have gone through so much, they desperately need a guy like JT and deserve him more than anyone. It is more of a matter of people thinking John would not be comfortable with the mess that the whole situation is rather than thinking that the team doesn’t deserve him.

I could be wrong, but I’ve yet to see any Toronto media say, “We are entitled to Tavares. NYI doesn’t need him.”

Posted by Andrew Mack on 04/17/09 at 11:26 AM ET

I don’t blame Toronto fans. I think they are fine fans. It’s the Toronto hockey media that’s psycho. They are the ones that push these stories. They make no sense! In the eyes of the Toronto media, everyone always wants to be a Leaf—the only reason anyone isn’t a Leaf is because:

- They were drafted by another team and aren’t a UFA yet
- Salary cap prevents it
- The Leafs already have someone filling said role
- Player/front office person’s family is comfortable where they are and won’t let them move
- Leafs don’t want them

Add whatever else you want to that. It just the same old stuff, like the Rick Nash story a while back, like the story (from Simmons, I believe) about how Detroit players hate Babcock (no sources, nothing, just said it like it was accepted fact), like how Ken Holland/Steve Yzerman/Scotty Bowman/Jim Nill would certainly leave the Red Wings if the Leafs came calling.

Stupid.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/17/09 at 11:39 AM ET

I think Toronto fans are a perfect example of how disconnected from reality the average Canadian can get.

Posted by Hippy Dave from San Francisco by way of Detroit on 04/17/09 at 12:22 PM ET

Hey man…don’t smear the rest of us with the same brush you’re painting TORONTO with. A lot of us want to vomit when the first 10 minutes of every sports show is dedicated to who didn’t skate at Leafs practise today, what coach Wilson said about something, or what Burkie is doing.

Isn’t it great that they don’t ever make the playoffs anymore?

Posted by Jim Kerr from Edmonton on 04/17/09 at 11:50 AM ET

Heheh, ok Jim, I agree, it was too broad a generalization, I tend to troll a bit before coffee in the morning or after about the seventh afternoon beer.

Good point about the media Nathan, I think they are largely to blame for Toronto’s misfortune.  If any player on that once proud team has a slump for 10 games after years of point production, they call for their head.  With that kind of loyalty its no wonder why this team will continue to reside in the basement for years to come.  Sad really, I miss the Wings/Leafs rivalry.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/17/09 at 11:54 AM ET

NYI organization is a disgrace to the nhl…..as Nathan a few comments earlier has described.

There are no excuses as to how the organization has got to this point, but the fact remains and you can ask yourself this question:

Would you really want to play for the NYI?

If I was an NHl player I would outright refuse to play for them…..100%.  They have proven they are going nowhere fast and why would I want to waste years off my career while they try to clean up their garbage?

Posted by prodigy on 04/17/09 at 12:09 PM ET

Some day soon they’ll be the Kansas City Chiefs.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/17/09 at 12:23 PM ET

It’s not that the Islanders don’t deserve Tavares… it’s that Tavares doesn’t deserve the Isles.

Seriously, what did that guy do to earn such a fate?  Kill someone?  Burn down a nursery?  Smother Mother Theresa with a pillow?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/17/09 at 12:24 PM ET

yes, poor tavares… must be awful to know he’s about to end up on a team with only one other elite prospect, that came nowhere near the playoffs this season, and hasn’t won the stanley cup for an age.

though the silver lining for him is, i suppose, that there is an infinitessimal chance that the toronto press could be wrong, and that he won’t become a leaf.

Posted by fredster from manchester on 04/17/09 at 12:37 PM ET

how the heck do you all expect teams to get better?  would you all rather have the pre-Cap NHL where big market teams got everyone?  Do we want a KC Royals clone in the league?  From the sounds of it, you do.  The Isles have struggled, but they WILL get better.  Would you guys rather have Pitt stayed awful?  I mean really.  Are you guys HOCKEY fans?  Classless.

And, FYI, I say this as a fan of BIG MARKET team and the Islanders’ biggest rivals, the Rangers.

Posted by BrandNewDream on 04/17/09 at 12:46 PM ET

Botta’s complaint is with some of the syncophant’s in the Toronto media that feel they are compelled to follow the orders of Brian Burke as if he were the wicked Witch of the West and they were his blue winged butt monkeys.

The idea that the Leafs are that much better off than the Islanders is laughable as well. We’re not talking a winning tradition like in Detroit or New Jersey here, but a team that has a large profit margin and not much else to show for it. The Leafs had to pay Jason Blake twice the going rate to get him to come from Long Island and they couldn’t even get their own Captain Sundin to re-sign.

Posted by Hockey1919 from Montreal on 04/17/09 at 12:51 PM ET

how the heck do you all expect teams to get better?

Well, maybe by not being run by total idiots, having owners who actually want a hockey team, and perhaps refraining from handing out 15 year contracts to goalies who hadn’t proved anything…

... there’s more, but that’s where I’d start.

The Isles have struggled, but they WILL get better.  Would you guys rather have Pitt stayed awful?  I mean really.  Are you guys HOCKEY fans?  Classless.

Don’t be an idiot.  Unless and until the Isles get competent people running the team, supported by competent (and solvent) ownership, they will suck forever.  It’s that simple.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/17/09 at 01:07 PM ET

Inept management aside, why would anyone wish failure for a franchise?

“Tavares doesn’t deserve the Isles?” Come on.  Yeah, Ovechkin didn’t deserve the Caps, either.  Let’s be real here. 

While the Isles might be in trouble now, I actually have faith in Wang and believe he wants to build a winner there.

Posted by BrandNewDream on 04/17/09 at 01:37 PM ET

BrandNewDram

how the heck do you all expect teams to get better?

Get better….come on man, wake up:

- Zdeno Chara, along with forward Bill Muckalt and their second-overall draft pick (which turned out to be Jason Spezza) for the enigmatic Alexei Yashin

- Luongo and Olli Jokinen to Florida for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha

- Todd Bertuzzi and Bryan McCabe were traded for veteran Trevor Linden.

- took Rick DiPietro with the first selection in the entry draft, ahead of the consensus picks Dany Heatley and Marian Gaborik.

- signed goaltender Rick DiPietro to a 15-year, 67.5 million dollar contract, among the longest in professional sports history at t he time

At the 2008 NHL Entry Draft, the Islanders made two trades to move down from the fifth to the ninth overall pick, with which they selected center Josh Bailey ....by dropping down they basically passed on Filatov and Schenn.

Posted by prodigy on 04/17/09 at 01:56 PM ET

“Tavares doesn’t deserve the Isles?” Come on.  Yeah, Ovechkin didn’t deserve the Caps, either.  Let’s be real here. 

Dont ever compare WASH and NYI, they are not even in the same ballpark bud….see my post above.

Posted by prodigy on 04/17/09 at 01:59 PM ET

Prodigy

All of the trades/selections were made by possibly the worst GM in NHL history, Mike Milbury. 

Draft picks are certainly tricky, I could sit here and name highly chosen prospects who were complete busts.  If DiPietro did not have his injury problems (as does Gaborik…), he would be a more than competent goalie in this league, and he would be a bargain at $4m per.  I agree, the term is ridiculous, but look at the other deals that have been given out.  I’m not going to get into the merits, but DiPietro was signed before he was ever injured.  It blew up in Wang’s face, just like Richards’, Zetterberg’s, and Franzen’s might.  You never know.

In passing up Filatov and Schenn, Snow was actively trying to replenish the cupboard that was left bare by Milbury’s inept drafting and trades.  He gained a number of picks through those deals, and still got a good player in Josh Bailey.  It’s too early to second guess that.  Remember how good Daniel Tkaczuk was going to be? 

If you want someone to blame, look to the NHL on NBC.  Garth Snow is trying to rectify those mistakes, and he’s trying to do it through youth, like Washington has.  Oh look, I compared them again.

Posted by BrandNewDream on 04/17/09 at 02:11 PM ET

Funny that Charles Wang and Ted Leonis both went to the same high school, made their money in the computer business,  own NHL teams,  signed duds to 10 year $100 million contracts (Jagr and Yashin),  bought out their contract problems (one by paying the Rangers to take him and the other at 2/3 the contract), were vilified by the fans for their ownership and at some point both regretted buying into the NHL because they were losing millions a year. 

The difference is Ted moved to the new arena, got the first overall pick, stopped meddling and allowed his hockey people to re-build four years sooner than Charles. If Wang who has deep (but not infinite) pockets gets his stadium development deal (which he is financing without any public funds), allows Snow to build through the draft, the Islanders will get better. Snow didn’t sign any 10 or 15 year deals (blame Wang), he didn’t sign outrageous UFA deals to look competitive (See Jason Blake) and strangle his cap room, properly assessed Streit and signed for under market value, stock piled draft picks and bit the bullet to re-build starting from the bottom.

Posted by Hockey1919 from Montreal on 04/17/09 at 02:13 PM ET

Don’t compare the Caps and Islanders, even with Ovechkin, Semin, and Green last season the Verizon center was empty on any given night until the playoff drive.  The Caps skate under the Mystics Attendance Championship banners and the Islanders skate under 4 stanley Cup banners.  Washington is a one team town, Redskins, and then jump on the bandwagon if someone else does well.

Posted by Hockey1919 from Montreal on 04/17/09 at 02:18 PM ET

I don’t wish any organization to fail. That’s absurd. But I don’t believe in a salary cap with revenue sharing. It’s communism. And before you call me McCarthy, take a second to think about what the cap and revenue sharing do. They force financially successful clubs to subsidize the unsuccessful ones.

As has been pointed out, the Islanders have had ample opportunity to succeed—in the pre-cap NHL. They drafted a number of star players, and weren’t patient enough to see things through. So they traded them all for washed up veterans or other prospects, only to see them develop at better clubs.

A cap can help financially weak teams in poor markets stay afloat and compete, but cap or no cap, you can’t fix stupid. And what I mean by that is that no matter how many rules are in place to level the playing field, if a team has bad management, bad coaching, and a bad minor league system/affiliate in the AHL, they won’t succeed.

The counter-example to the NYI that proves this point is the Preds. They have worse financial problems than the Islanders. They are in a worse hockey market. But they have GM and coach that are second-to-none, good scouting, and a great farm team in the AHL. That’s why, despite lots of financial turmoil and problems in ownership, they’ve managed to scrape together highly competitive teams both before and after the cap was put in place.

All the cap does is punish teams that are financially successful. It doesn’t do anything to help boost up teams like the Islanders that are just plain mis-managed when it comes to non-financial hockey operations.

So yeah, if your idea of leveling the playing field is knocking down the successful franchises a few pegs closer to mediocrity that way the really shitty ones like NYI can catch up every few seasons, great… I think that’s a real negative view to take. Punish success and smarts and reward failure with revenue sharing dollars? Yeah, that sounds fair.

Before people take it personally, think it through. I don’t think many fans are asinine enough to want organizations to fail. Do you honestly believe people want that? I don’t want a team like the Islanders or Predators or Thrashers to fail—what I want is for them to succeed on their own merit, without handouts from Detroit, NYR, Toronto, etc.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/17/09 at 02:32 PM ET

Nathan,

Great analysis and I agree completely.  But my point is that the Islanders are actually trying to fix that.  They have a coach there now who seems to be pushing them in the right direction, and a GM who seems committed to building it the right way.

Just look at the Rangers.  7 years no playoffs, picked to be last in the league, then they almost win the Atlantic post-lockout and are now into their 4th straight playoff appearance.  Not Cup threats, exactly, but it happened in LARGE part to Tom Renney’s player development, and then coaching.  He had a great influence in scouting, drafting, etc.  The right people (as you mention with Trotz and Poile, as well as in Det with Holland, Dellavano, Bowman, Andersson, etc.) can do wonders.  Give the Islanders time.

The revenue sharing, while it is a bit of crap, is necessary in some ways.  Without it, we’d have owners getting in and getting out every 2-3 years, and no one willing to commit when they were losing $20m+ a year.  The revenue sharing helps alleviate that, and then they’re more willing to invest long term.  You can’t particularly fault the league for wanting to strengthen the LEAGUE as a whole.  It’s the NHL, mostly based in the U.S.  It’s not the EPL in England where fans will come out in droves, regardless, despite knowing their team doesn’t have the resources that Man U., Arsenal, and Chelsea do, and will rarely ever be able to compete.  People back winners.  I don’t think that will change.

What I DO fault the league for, however, is pissing away a season. 

I don’t think the Islanders are crediting the money from other teams for their work in drafting ,etc.  They want to do it their way.  As much as I can’t stand them sometimes being a Ranger fan, I hope for Long Island’s sake that they do.

Posted by BrandNewDream on 04/17/09 at 02:44 PM ET

I agree. I hate the cap since it only improved the bottom line for the rich owners, there was balance before the cap and a fool and their money were easily parted (see Leafs and Rangers pre-Cap).  This is socialized capitalism where there is no inherent risk, but guaranteed reward as long as someone else works smart. However, the Islanders are NOT eligible for NHL charity funds since they are in too large of a market and other bylaws. (Even though the NHL won’t let them use that market for the outdoor game that they originally proposed ) Crazy Wangs was laughed at until it became a succes with Buffalo and Pitt and now the NHL would prefer the Rangers take place in any Yankee stadium showcase.

I also whole heartily support the Predators and their fans, its not the place I would have expanded to, but it must be pretty damn hard to be a hockey fan in that market with so littel respect and it makes it all the more remarkable that they have so many die hards down there. It is a testament to the game itself that with almost no media support in the large areas of the US it still thrives. Much like I have sympathy for Islander fans after having so many criminals that run that organization into the ground, but you can’t keep blaming past failure on the current team. They finally blew it up and are starting to re-build properly.

Posted by Hockey1919 from Montreal on 04/17/09 at 02:50 PM ET

Great analysis and I agree completely.  But my point is that the Islanders are actually trying to fix that.  They have a coach there now who seems to be pushing them in the right direction, and a GM who seems committed to building it the right way.

Fair play, I think the Isles have some good things going for them, but can’t help but be skeptical. Snow wasn’t exactly a blue-chip appointment to GM. He seems like he’s trying to “do things the right way”, but for a guy that’s a rookie in hockey operations, I imagine he’ll make some mistakes despite the best of intentions and all his hard work.

When they played the Wings (and won) I was impressed with how the coach really got every last bit out of that team. You could tell they were listening to him and fired up to play for him. That’s a good sign.

I singled out the Islanders since that’s what we’re talking about, but you could really insert any team with a similar checkered past of mis-management, like the Thrashers.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/17/09 at 03:08 PM ET

Hey, remember when a guy named Crosby and a guy named Malkin went to one of the lowest-seeded teams in the league?

Weren’t they gonna get sold somewhere?

Oh wait, remember Tampa Bay was in really rough shape and them some guy named Vincent… er.. something… came there..  I think.  And some guy from St. Louis I think…

Oh wait and then there was this other team that got some guys named Jonathan Fingers… wait.. Toes… wait…  I think there was another guy Kane involved…  but they kinda sucked till then…. who was it?

C’mon guys, see the pattern.

It’ll all come around.  Let’s just hope the Isles’ idiot savant owner is smart enough to sell the team before its another Tampa Bay situation..

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/18/09 at 02:39 AM ET