YES!

Posted by Unicorn Force from DC (but like everyone here, I'm not a local) on 04/19/11 at 08:57 PM ET

Of course they don’t want to lose the Phoenix TV market.  Phoenix to Winnipeg would be going from the 12th-largest US market, to a small CANADIAN market (which means Extra Small if you’re being super honest here).

The problem in Phoenix hasn’t been so much the market as it has been the years, and years, and YEARS of mismanagement and TERRIBLE coaching until Tippet finally took over.  Consider how long the dogs have been in Phoenix, and then how many playoff appearances they’ve made.  Not… good…

There are bigger problems though with Phoenix that have not been touched on.  The housing market has absolutely busted in that area, and the economy has been hard hit as well now.  It has not helped.  These are things that get national attention, as I’m not in the PHX area yet I know about them.  Phoenix is not a “hot” area to move to now…

It has also not helped that the Suns, D-backs, and even the Cardinals have all had strong runs at some point here, and the Coyotes never really have.  You can spend your dollar on seeing Steve Nash or Shane Doan—which would YOU choose?  Doan is the biggest “star” on the team and he’s really not much more than a grinding winger, which speaks to just how bad Phoenix is and has been.  In this time the Coyotes have been miserable, the D-Backs have won a World Series against the Yanks, the Cards made a Super Bowl, and the Suns featured one of the most exciting offenses in recent NBA memory with good playoff runs.

The good news would be that the Suns are setting, the Cards are regressing, and the D-Backs are fairly terrible again.  If the Coyotes could hang on for a few years and continue to compete, they’d likely gain a lot more market attention, including TV share, just out of the sheer fact that the other teams in the market won’t be very good.

Posted by Primis on 04/19/11 at 09:58 PM ET

As is often pointed out, NBC only shows the Pens, Caps, Rangers, Flyers, Wings and Hawks, so what is the difference ? For that matter, how often does Versus ever show the cities where the league is “trying to grow the game” like Atlanta, Nashville, Florida, Carolina ?

Posted by mc keeper on 04/19/11 at 10:02 PM ET

Does this really matter now that the deal has been inked? The NHL doesn’t need to worry about American television for another 10 years.

Posted by dzuunmod on 04/19/11 at 10:05 PM ET

Primis is exactly right. The legacy of Wayne Gretzky and Jerry Moyes pillaging of this franchise is still not fixed. Add on the Ballisillie attempted abduction and the Canadian media’s constant attempt to assassinate this franchise and you have the current problems.

Posted by timbits on 04/19/11 at 10:18 PM ET

Well now that LIL gary has secured a $2 billion ?????????? TV deal, I guess it’s irrelevant if the stadium is half empty on most nights.

It’s just like the NFL TV deal. Every teammakes money without selling a single ticket.

  Hell, you what this means???

  Ladies and gentleman meet your new NHL franchises in the top 10 TV markets

  Houston

  Las Vegas

San Diego

Don’t know anything about Hockey? Who cares, you gotta TV don’t ya??

Posted by Down River Dan on 04/19/11 at 10:47 PM ET

Also, does it really matter how big the market is if no one in the market actually cares about/watches the team?

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 04/19/11 at 11:02 PM ET

Phoenix to Winnipeg would be going from the 12th-largest US market, to a small CANADIAN market

At least people would fill the arena each and every game.
Phoenix is an embarrassment to the rest of the league, get the team out of there already and into Winnipeg, where people would appreciate them.

I doubt one Canadian gives a crap about Phoenix and their market, it may be 12th largest, but who cares, they still don’t attend games, goodbye Phoenix, and don’t ever put a market in such a retarded location again Bettman you tool.

Posted by PuckHound61 from Speckville USA on 04/19/11 at 11:02 PM ET

One governor said Canadians may not like it, but the NHL is a U.S.-based league, with only six Canadian teams, so the 24 American franchises are more interested in developing markets at home.

“To be truthful, we hate to lose a big market like Phoenix. That’s it in a nutshell.”

That governor also said it would be hard to sell a team from a small Canadian city, like Winnipeg, to fans in his market, “especially on Tuesday and Wednesday nights.”

I can just see the marquee in New Jersey: Devils vs Winnipeg and 12 people show up.  So, they will fill the 15000 seat building in Winnipeg and still lose money. How does adding a town that no one knows where it is, in a market with no potential for TV or corporate money make sense?

Posted by timbits on 04/19/11 at 11:11 PM ET

I am unable to see how the same fans who declined to buy tickets and keep the team afloat are somehow considered to be an important TV market to the NHL.  It may be true that the team has never been a championship contender, but they have had competitive teams in Phoenix, especially the past two seasons.  If the team that makes the playoff two seasons in a row, has a supposed Vezina winner in net, and has a Norris trophy caliber defenseman can’t sell tickets well enough to interest a buyer, I blame the fans.  Who cares if the NHL loses viewership in the desert?  It was a mistake from the start.

Posted by bezukov from Nasburgum delenda est. on 04/19/11 at 11:20 PM ET

The ratings and market still matter very much, as the league and teams will continue to try to attract corporate sponsors.

Posted by NHLJeff from Pens fan in Chicago, IL on 04/19/11 at 11:25 PM ET

The location of a franchise matters far less than the quality of its ownership and management. Phoenix has been mismanaged all along, and it’s hard to imagine this getting much better considering that nobody wants to buy the team unless they can get it for basically nothing. This isn’t a recipe for stability and future growth.

The NHL would be better off with teams in markets that want them and have the resources to support them, whether or not they’re Canadian. Green Bay isn’t a drain on the NFL, is it? The NHL has lots and lots of problems, big problems; Winnipeg vs. Phoenix is very low on that very long list.

mckeeper is right: the national networks never show the sun-belt teams anyway. As for away-game ticket sales, I seriously doubt that fans in New Jersey or Chicago or Boston are going to stay away just because the visiting team is from Winnipeg instead of Phoenix. They’re buying tickets to (a) see their home team, and (b) see good hockey. The identity of the visitors (unless it’s the Red Wings or maybe Penguins) is a very small part of the box-office equation.

Posted by jvwalt on 04/19/11 at 11:33 PM ET

Green Bay isn’t a drain on the NFL

Winnipeg is no Green Bay. Phoenix with a population of 4 million is the future and is potential.  Winnipeg with 700,000 will never be a strong franchise. It failed once it will fail again.

Posted by timbits on 04/20/11 at 12:11 AM ET

We can argue that the team has been mismanaged for years.  They’ve never had any real quantifiable consistent success.  Therefore, we have some measure that the team has been mismanaged. 

However, having spent time in Phoenix, I don’t think that if the Coyotes were to go on a 5 year dynasty run, the fans would show.  It is Phoenix.  Phoenix isn’t a sports town.  It’s a large community that doesn’t seem to have much love for anything outside of the Suns that have been around for ages. 

Now, this will be harder to prove, but I do believe that it is time to cash out and start anew elsewhere.  I understand that as the fifth largest city in the USA, the NHL wants a share of those dollars.  However, those dollars will never make their way into an NHL arena.  The NHL would be far better served looking into a place where fans would go.  If not Winnipeg, then Quebec, Portland, Seattle or Kansas City.

Posted by Unicorn Force from DC (but like everyone here, I'm not a local) on 04/20/11 at 12:14 AM ET

Winnipeg is no Green Bay. Phoenix with a population of 4 million is the future and is potential.  Winnipeg with 700,000 will never be a strong franchise. It failed once it will fail again.

The dollar was not as strong back then as it is now.
Phoenix has FAILED in every department, are you blind or just agruing for the sake of it?
Even if Winnipeg was 1/10 the size of Phoenix, the arena would be full regardless if the team was good or not, because hockey rules in Canada.
What rules in Phoenix? I dont know, watching the sunsent perhaps, watching the retired people spend money.

Posted by PuckHound61 from Speckville USA on 04/20/11 at 12:51 AM ET

The dollar was not as strong back then as it is now.
-PuckHound61

It’s not a good idea to make a long term business decision based on the current currency markets.  Job creation is going up in the US, as soon as the Fed catches the faintest whiff of inflation, US interest rates are going up and with the the real exchange rate of the US dollar.  Phoenix apparently won’t support an NHL franchise, but if it’s new location needs to rely on conditions caused by historically low US interest rates, the new location won’t last either.

Posted by Chris in A^2 from Nyquist Puck Control on 04/20/11 at 01:37 AM ET

It’s not a good idea to make a long term business decision based on the current currency markets.

It’s also not good business to keep a team in a market where no one wants to straight-up *own* the team, and where fewer people watch the games on TV than are actually in the arena.

Winnipeg has its weaknesses, no doubt, but more people will be in the arena night in, night out than watch the games on FS Arizona. Right now, the Coyotes are costing NHL owners tens of millions of dollars per season that they remain there. You think that NBC’s bidding price on the NHL rights was tens of millions of dollars higher on account of the fact that the Coyotes are in Phoenix and not Winnipeg? No? Then it makes more sense to have the team in a place where they will lose less money, and where an owner with deep pockets will be more than willing to cover the losses in those seasons.

If the NHL can find an owner who is willing to lose the kind of money it will take to make hockey viable in Phoenix long-term, then by all means, keep them there. If they can’t, let someone buy them and move them.

Posted by dzuunmod on 04/20/11 at 01:46 AM ET

Phoenix apparently won’t support an NHL franchise, but if it’s new location needs to rely on conditions caused by historically low US interest rates, the new location won’t last either.

Winnipeg lost their franchise in the first place not because of fans, but because of the dollar at the time was trading at about 61 cents I believe.
Phoenix has never been successful, the team is a disgrace compared to cities in the US with similiar sized populations, hell, even Nashville has more corporate support and loyal fans and is what, 1/5th the size if not less?

The team will be stable in Winnipeg at least and the fan base strong.

An NHL team in Saskatoon or Halifax would have more support than Phoenix, put the teams where the people love hockey, not where half or more of the population don’t even know the name of the team or have ever seen a game in their life, enough of this bullsh1t, its a big FAIL.

The NHL can do without Phoenix, Bettman needs to go if he thinks they can work it out there, not going too happen.

Get the formalities out of the way and move them, make the announcement right after the Coyotes bow out of the playoffs, tomorrow perhaps, save face Bettman and dont be a dumbass here anymore.

Posted by PuckHound61 from Speckville USA on 04/20/11 at 01:54 AM ET

Winnipeg lost their franchise in the first place not because of fans, but because of the dollar at the time was trading at about 61 cents I believe

I would love to see a team in Winnipeg, a team in Quebec City and a team in Red Deer, but let’s at least be honest here: for most of the years of the history of the Jets in Winnipeg, they averaged 12,000 or 13,000 people a game, and that was at, like, 1991 NHL ticket prices.

Winnipeg would be in tough to turn a profit. No one can reasonably dispute this. Those who do are ignorant or disingenuous. That said, there is a deep-pocketed owner in Winnipeg willing to own the team and seemingly willing to lose money some of the time on the deal, and it sure as hell seems like that’s not the case in Phoenix.

Posted by dzuunmod on 04/20/11 at 01:59 AM ET

I live in AZ, and I DO NOT want to see this team relocated. However, I don’t know how this team can survive financially. As we all know, they’re not the sexiest team in the league and rely on their solid defense to win games. Most casual hockey fans don’t appreciate that aspect of the game as it may be considered less entertaining. Furthermore, they’re located in the West Valley which is a trek for many of the greater Phoenix residents. Personally, it can be a pain in the arse to deal with after having several beers. Good luck to the longevity of the franchise while in PHX!

Going to Game 4. Was thinking that it’s possible that it could be the Yotes last game in PHX. It would suck for Yotes fans, because it’s a hell of a barn and not a bad seat in the joint. We’ll see. LET’S GO RED WINGS!!

Posted by Jesters Dead on 04/20/11 at 02:03 AM ET

Winnipeg lost their franchise in the first place not because of fans, but because of the dollar at the time was trading at about 61 cents I believe.
- PuckHound61

The exchange rate might not dip that low, but it will be headed in that direction in the near future.  I just wanted to throw that out there since there’s been a lot of talk about more Canadian teams based on the bump in revenue the league got solely from the exchange rate.  Moving a team based on the current exchange rate is a bad idea, I completely support giving die hard hockey fans an NHL team.

Posted by Chris in A^2 from Nyquist Puck Control on 04/20/11 at 02:33 AM ET

At least people would fill the arena each and every game.
Phoenix is an embarrassment to the rest of the league, get the team out of there already and into Winnipeg, where people would appreciate them.

I doubt one Canadian gives a crap about Phoenix and their market, it may be 12th largest, but who cares, they still don’t attend games, goodbye Phoenix, and don’t ever put a market in such a retarded location again Bettman you tool.

Posted by PuckHound61 from Speckville USA on 04/19/11 at 11:02 PM ET

Winnipeg is even more of an embarrassment because they’ve failed once already, and history shows they’d fail again the second the Loonie drops.

Look.  Truth be told?  The NHL gains NOTHING from a team in Winnipeg.  They lose a better, more-affluent market economically.  They lose a much larger TV market.  And Winnipeg has basically zero potential for actual growth of any sort.  There is no business “upside” to Winnipeg, that’s the dirty little secret here.

A team in Winnipeg would be nothing more than a placeholder until they can move it somewhere better again—Kansas City, Las Vegas, Portland, or even back to Phoenix….  That’s the reality.  Canadian markets are not good NHL markets.

Posted by Primis on 04/20/11 at 07:38 AM ET

Primis, exactly. Not enough people have the ability to see this from a business perspective. At the end of the day, this is a business. Yes, they’ll probably fill the arena in Winnipeg, but everyone there is already an NHL fan and everyone who is going to play hockey does already. In Phoenix there is potential business upside, even if it’s taking a while to be obvious. There are definitely tons of kids that are playing hockey in Phoenix now that wouldn’t be if it weren’t for the Coyotes and plenty of people (not enough at this point) that are NHL fans because of the Coyotes. Bottom line is that Winnipeg does nothing for the league but fill an arena, and what most fans fail to realize is that, in the grand scheme of things for the league, filling one arena isn’t nearly as important as getting exposure with potential new customers that have no current connnection to the game.

Posted by NHLJeff from Pens fan in Chicago, IL on 04/20/11 at 07:49 AM ET

Okay, when you come right down to it, the NHL shouldn’t move the franchise; they should FOLD it. And about five others. There are too many teams that have no identity or heritage, in markets with no history of hockey (except for the snowbirds).

But they’re not gonna downsize, so what’s left? Keep the team in Phoenix, where it’s been a financial drain and an embarrassment for the league? Or move it to a market that cares?

Yes, if you’re thinking long-term growth, the sunbelt strategy could work. The NFL is doing exactly the same thing with its perpetual courting of the European market; it’s a short-term drain that could pay off in the future. But right now, the NHL isn’t in long-term mode; it’s in crisis-management mode.

Phoenix is a crisis. Nobody wants to own the team! If you don’t have solid, committed ownership, then the franchise has no hope of succeeding.

Posted by jvwalt on 04/20/11 at 08:18 AM ET

Winnipeg is even more of an embarrassment because they’ve failed once already, and history shows they’d fail again the second the Loonie drops.

Look.  Truth be told?  The NHL gains NOTHING from a team in Winnipeg.  They lose a better, more-affluent market economically.  They lose a much larger TV market.  And Winnipeg has basically zero potential for actual growth of any sort.  There is no business “upside” to Winnipeg, that’s the dirty little secret here.

A team in Winnipeg would be nothing more than a placeholder until they can move it somewhere better again—Kansas City, Las Vegas, Portland, or even back to Phoenix….  That’s the reality.  Canadian markets are not good NHL markets.

The dollar failed, not the city, get your facts straight.

Who cares if the NHL gains from a team in Winnipeg, the majority of players are Canadian and you have to live with that, not one person in Winnipeg cares what the NHL can gain or not gain, they simply want their team back, who can blame them?

It was not the fans fault the Canadian dollar was at an all time low back then.

Posted by PuckHound61 from Speckville USA on 04/20/11 at 02:44 PM ET

The NHL gains NOTHING from a team in Winnipeg.

You’re right, they lose from moving the team to Winnipeg. They lose a money-pit into which owners have collectively funneled tens upon tens of millions of dollars, they lose the utterly embarrassing pictures from Jobing.com on the highlights every night, and they lose a TV market where the ratings are about one-quarter of what they are in the weakest Canadian TV market - Ottawa.

I just want to add that I don’t think it was a terrible idea to put some teams in the sunbelt, just that I think the league tried to do way too much, way too fast.

My own personal preference at this point would be to see contraction. It would be a stronger league in so many ways if there were 4 or 5 fewer teams. But either way, Phoenix is an embarrassment to the league right now.

Posted by dzuunmod on 04/20/11 at 02:56 PM ET

There have been many cities who have gained a franchise after losing one (bay area, philly, pitts, colorado, atlanta, minn, ottawa, ny and st. l.. there even used to be a cleveland team which isnt far from columbus) so to say you lose your franchise, you dont get another one is a pretty stupid argument. there are many factors that could be the reason why a team relocates, not just bc of poor attendance. Lets play hockey in places where the people want a team. Just bc you have the 5th most populated city doesnt mean youll make money off of that market. If no one watches, you could have a city of 5 million and itd still have the same amount of ppl watching in a city of 200,000 if no one is watching. If you dont want a team in Winnipeg, then Hamilton is a nice place. Hamilton, Halifax, Regina, Winnipeg, Milwaukee, Seattle, Portland, KC, and Quebec would support their team better than some of these NHL teams do. Where you get fan support, you usually have a decent team that makes a lil bit of money. I live in Detroit, by no means a place that players go to bc of the weather, the city, the economy.. they come to play for the Red Wings. Were loyal up here.. loyal fans deserve a team when fans who have a team arent supporting them.

Posted by Wm on 05/13/11 at 04:05 AM ET

So if saving Phoenix because of the market & TV is in the NHL’s best interest, why sacrifice Atlanta?  It’s a larger metro area & TV market than Phoenix.  Saving Phoenix doesn’t fly if economics are the desired result.

Posted by Thrash from Atlanta on 05/17/11 at 10:17 AM ET