Much like my skin crawls when I think on the sad reality that Rob freaking Otto has a platform to comment on hockey in Detroit.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 03/08/10 at 12:25 PM ET

Very early on this season at a Fort Wayne Komets IHL game some fans apparently tried to replicate that and get the crowd going during the national anthem, like they do in Chicago.  They were jeered, booed, and threatened to the point where they were nearly kicked out of the Coliseum and it spilled over onto several blogs for the rest of the week, with the offenders trying to defend themselves and their actions, and others telling them they were indefensible.  They specifically cited that they were trying to “do what they do in Chicago” in doing so.

Now keep in mind:  the Komets play in what is still considered Blackhawks territory in Fort Wayne, and it still was considered disrespectful and unwelcome.

I think that says a lot.  A lot of people are okay with it in Chicago because they can’t stop it now… but they have no intention of allowing it anywhere else.  “Not in my place”...

Posted by Primis on 03/08/10 at 01:01 PM ET

Wanting or needing reverent silence for the anthem is akin to wanting women and girls to be more conservative and modest in their dress at the beach in the summer . . . Good luck getting that cat back in the bag . . . it’s old-fashioned to a fault and fuddy-duddy nitpicking.

In an era in which Americans are told to do their patriotic duty by spending money, what is the point of splitting hairs about a euphoric response to a rousing rendition of the Anthem.

When I am at the UC and I hear the Anthem, I think to myself: “God damn, this country may have its share of skeletons in its closet and the banking cabal might be doing their best to destroy everything, but holy shit, it sure is great to be living here . . .  NOW . . . . making this unholy din ahead of what’s sure to be a great hockey game.”

Are the military guys on the ice props? Perhaps. But again, in an era in which guys are serving and dying and coming home wounded in myriad ways, this amped-up Anthem might just be a small reminder that there still is some pride and appreciation for the unbelievable sacrifice they’ve made.

If this douche really wants respectfulness, I recommend going after all the shitheads who put a flag on their front porch and leave it out for six or eight months until it is a gray and tattered piece of fabric hanging from a steel rod. For *#$%@&’s sake.

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 01:03 PM ET

I find the song they play after every Blackhawk goal to be much more offensive.

Posted by Throbbing Babcock from The Deep South on 03/08/10 at 01:13 PM ET

Personally, I think that national anthems are an abomination. Embarassing, unnecessary and a general waste of time. Perhaps that’s because I’m European where anthems are saved for national teams, and nationalism less high pitched and excessive.

Posted by Moq from Denmark on 03/08/10 at 01:15 PM ET

Personally, I think that national anthems are an abomination. Embarassing, unnecessary and a general waste of time. Perhaps that’s because I’m European where anthems are saved for national teams, and nationalism less high pitched and excessive.

Posted by Moq from Denmark on 03/08/10 at 01:15 PM ET

Are we talking about the same Europe, Moq?  Is there a second Europe I wasn’t aware of somewhere?

We know what goes on during soccer matches in Europe the continent, after all, Moq.

Wait, you’re talking about the band Europe aren’t you, you must be….  speaking of abominations…

Posted by Primis on 03/08/10 at 01:29 PM ET

Nothing wrong with cheering AFTER the anthem (although still technically not correct), but making NOISE during the anthem is disrespectful. Then again anything that infringes on someone’s ability to make an ass out of themselves in public is now frowned upon. The little children need to express themselves even if it means they prove their ignorance. Is it too much to ask for a couple of minutes where it is not about you?

PS
There is a difference between nationalism and patriotism, but Europe has a hard time with the distinction since the Nationalist parties tend to lead them into border wars and xenophobia.

Posted by hockey1919 from montreal on 03/08/10 at 02:04 PM ET

This doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the fanbases who yell out their team names to replace the word “brave” at the end of the anthem.  Everytime I’ve been to Arrowhead stadium and heard “O’er the land of the free and the home of the CHIEFS!”, I want to go on a stabbing rampage.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 03/08/10 at 02:29 PM ET

Are we talking about the same Europe, Moq?  Is there a second Europe I wasn’t aware of somewhere?

We know what goes on during soccer matches in Europe the continent, after all, Moq.

Wait, you’re talking about the band Europe aren’t you, you must be….  speaking of abominations…

Posted by Primis on 03/08/10 at 01:29 PM ET

what has that got to do with anything, dont be too proud of your own,or you might just make an ass out of yourself

Posted by edillac from isolation on 03/08/10 at 02:39 PM ET

what has that got to do with anything, dont be too proud of your own,or you might just make an ass out of yourself

Posted by edillac on 03/08/10 at 02:39 PM ET

Since we’re speaking of looking foolish?  Did you even read Moq’s original post I replied to, and quoted?

Didn’t think so.  Thanks, buh-bye.

Posted by Primis on 03/08/10 at 02:55 PM ET

If he was “listening to the pregame”, why not just hit MUTE???

Posted by ubie2 from Pgh on 03/08/10 at 02:58 PM ET

We know what goes on during soccer matches in Europe the continent, after all, Moq.

That has NOTHING to do with nationalism and everything to do with organized violence and hooliganism.  Which is why it happens just as much at the club level as it does at the national level.

I don’t get the big deal with playing the national anthem before every sporting event.  Hell, we even had to sing it before all of my high school swim meets, which seems excessive.  It’s such a custom now that I get why people are very defensive of the performance of the anthem and why people feel it should be treated with respect, but at the same time, the Star Spangled Banner wasn’t adopted as our national anthem until the 1930s, and we didn’t start singing it before EVERY sporting event until World War II (much like the phrase “under God” wasn’t added to the Pledge of Allegiance until the 1950s, when we had to set ourselves apart from those godless commies).  The point is that the anthem is treated as this profound symbol that must be respected, when I feel like a lot of the people who are so protective of it are the same ones who love to talk about how they “support the troops” except all they have done is buy a yellow ribbon magnet for their car.  When it comes down to it, it’s really just a song.  To make it into this larger-than-life symbol trivializes the sacrifices made by people that have actually fought for our freedom.  I don’t need to sing a song before a hockey game to demonstrate my love for our country.  There are more tangible ways to do this than an empty gesture, during which many people just zone out for a few minutes and wait for the puck to drop (or not, if Karen Newman is singing).

Oh, and I’d rather Chicago just get knocked out before the Wings have a chance to face them, because if I have to hear Chelsea Dagger after every damn goal I’m going to get stabby.

Posted by Incognetis from Delaware... Hi... I'm in... Delaware on 03/08/10 at 03:04 PM ET

Posted by Primis on 03/08/10 at 02:55 PM ET

you want to be wrong, I guess

Posted by edillac from isolation on 03/08/10 at 03:10 PM ET

it’s old-fashioned to a fault and fuddy-duddy nitpicking.

it’s people like you who are the problem.  there is nothing old-fashioned or fuddy-duddy about traditional respect for this country, its anthem, and its flag.  on that last one, it disgusted me to see US Olympic athletes who are apparently unaware that you should not let a US flag drag on the ground.  you’d think THEY of ANYONE would know this.

this amped-up Anthem might just be a small reminder that there still is some pride and appreciation for the unbelievable sacrifice they’ve made.

the silence itself is that reminder.  that’s the POINT to the silence - to show that you have pride and appreciation for this country and the sacrifice many have made for it by SHUTTING YOUR FAT *#$%@& MOUTH FOR A FEW MINUTES.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 03:23 PM ET

Posted by Incognetis from Exile in Alabama on 03/08/10 at 03:04 PM ET

Pretty well said.  The Chicago thing is tradition and it’s not designed to be disrespectful.  The replacing the “brave” pet peeve of mine is just because it’s obnoxious.

I’ll caveat my agreement with the idea that booing another country’s national anthem is stupid and people who do that, both American and Canadian deserve a big punch in the gut.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 03/08/10 at 03:30 PM ET

I always hate to see the Chicago fans do that.
I find it very disrespectful.  After all, nobody can even hear the anthem.
Instead of a singer, they should just bring a dog out to bark while everybody makes noise.  You could not tell the difference.

I like the way the Canadians do their anthem….with great pride and respect.

As for the University of Michigan at Yost, the only way they got the obscene chants to stop was to move the band next to the students, and whenever the obscene chants start, the band cranks it up to drown them out.

That didn’t really stop the chants, it just drowns them out.

Posted by w2j2 on 03/08/10 at 03:40 PM ET

meh, national anthems belong (like Moq said) in international games. Using them for league games is just nationalist bullshit. And singing them a capella is wronger than wrong. Let a marching band do it, so a crowd can sing along.

Love,
Everyone in Europe

Posted by Andy from FightNight on 03/08/10 at 04:47 PM ET

I think it’s great what the Chicago fans do. It’s another form of patriotism.

Having said that, I wouldn’t mind seeing national anthems scrapped from hockey games.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 03/08/10 at 05:08 PM ET

So now, I am the problem, Paul?

A guy who loves this country and loves hearing the anthem in such a rousing manner. I am the problem?

“Traditional respect” for this country is awfully hard to define, and no offense, Paul, but I’d rather not have someone like you heading up that Committee.

We are not discussing the playing of the National Anthem/Star Spangled Banner on Veteran’s Day. We are discussing the 41 times it is played before a Blackhawks hockey game in Chicago. I don’t need to show my pride and appreciation in a way that you approve of, guy. Do you get that? One of the beauties of America . . . freedom. Dig it.

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 05:45 PM ET

I think it’s great what the Chicago fans do. It’s another form of patriotism.

going against centuries of patriotic traditions is not in itself patriotism.  it’s a smack in the face to patriotism.

not to mention childishly disrespectful to the singer.

So now, I am the problem, Paul?

read it again.  did I say YOU are the problem?  what was my exact sentence?

A guy who loves this country and loves hearing the anthem in such a rousing manner. I am the problem?

no, people LIKE you.  in other words, those who are so ignorant as to think they are doing something good when in fact they are doing something disrespectful.

cheer AFTER the anthem, to show your patriotism.  shut the *#$%@& up DURING the anthem, to show your patriotism.

you understand what “moments of silence” are, right?  would you have made a bunch of noise during a post-9/11 “moment of silence” at a sporting event?  I doubt it, and I hope not.  the moment of silence during the anthem is a show of respect for all those who have sacrificed their lives and DIED FOR YOUR RIGHTS.  would you hoot and holler at one of their funerals?  I doubt it, and hope not.

e are not discussing the playing of the National Anthem/Star Spangled Banner on Veteran’s Day. We are discussing the 41 times it is played before a Blackhawks hockey game in Chicago.

it doesn’t matter when or where, the meaning is the same.

I don’t need to show my pride and appreciation in a way that you approve of, guy. Do you get that?

it’s not about MY approval.  it’s about many, many years of tradition and respect.

One of the beauties of America . . . freedom. Dig it.

yes, you are free to be an ignorant loudmouth jackass who refuses to properly honor the death of American soldiers who fought and died for that very freedom.  again, would you hoot and holler and one of their funerals?  nope.  why not?  no anonymity.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 05:53 PM ET

A guy who loves this country and loves hearing the anthem in such a rousing manner.

by the way, how can you HEAR the anthem when 20,000 people are screaming over it?

hmmmmm….

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 06:06 PM ET

going against centuries of patriotic traditions is not in itself patriotism.  it’s a smack in the face to patriotism.

I just want to point out again that this particular patriotic tradition did not occur regularly until World War II, and only before baseball games.  And even then, it was more of a way to rouse patriotic feelings and to keep spirits high on the home front than it was a solemn gesture of respect and remembrance.  We’ve really only had about two or three generations where hearing the Star Spangled Banner before EVERY sporting event or large gathering is the norm, and the idea of it honoring the fallen soldiers of conflicts past and present is an even more recent development.

Posted by Incognetis from Delaware... Hi... I'm in... Delaware on 03/08/10 at 06:09 PM ET

Jesus, PaulinMiamiBeach, we’re not talking about Taps here . . . This is the “Star-Spangled Banner” being played before a hockey game.

it doesn’t matter when or where, the meaning is the same.

Again, maybe to you, Minister of Proper Patriotism. For me, there is context. I’m not entirely sure the “Star Spangled Banner” is a solemn lament for every fallen soldier. It’s a song about the flag and the country and its words were set to a “popular British drinking song,” which should get you really worked up when you stew on that one for a while.

yes, you are free to be an ignorant loudmouth jackass who refuses to properly honor the death of American soldiers who fought and died for that very freedom.  again, would you hoot and holler and one of their funerals?  nope.  why not?  no anonymity.

Boy, you want to talk about missing a point by a country mile . . . Now, you’ve got me dishonoring soldier’s funerals. At least, thanks to the internet, your spittle is not flying into my face. I would never hoot and holler at a soldier’s funeral . . . just as I wouldn’t treat a Friday night at the United Center like it was someone’s wake . . .

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 06:10 PM ET

by the way, how can you HEAR the anthem when 20,000 people are screaming over it?

Because the very talented Jim Cornelison is SINGING IT INTO A MICROPHONE and they are BLASTING it from those black boxes hanging from the ceiling which are called amplifiers. Do you follow? IT’S A CELEBRATION, man.

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 06:14 PM ET

In the playoffs you hear much more noise during the anthems, especially as they reach a crescendo. It gets the fans fired up.  I don’t see anything wrong with it as long as there isn’t booing.  I actually credit hockey for having the lyrics of both the American and Canadian anthems permanently imprinted in my brain.  The songs are part of the game.  Keep it loud Chicago.

Posted by DerekO'G on 03/08/10 at 06:31 PM ET

going against centuries of patriotic traditions is not in itself patriotism.  it’s a smack in the face to patriotism.

I just want to point out again that this particular patriotic tradition did not occur regularly until World War II, and only before baseball games. 

playing it during sporting events, yes.  but that’s not what we’re talking about.  we’re talking about what you should be doing while it’s being played - no matter where it’s being played.  which is NOTHING.

We’ve really only had about two or three generations where hearing the Star Spangled Banner before EVERY sporting event or large gathering is the norm, and the idea of it honoring the fallen soldiers of conflicts past and present is an even more recent development.

really?

http://www.republic-online.com/20090121911/myblog/myblog/the-star-spangled-banner.html

The song itself was written as poem by Francis Scott Key on the night of Sept. 13, 1814 as he watched the Americans defend Fort McHenry against an attack from the British.

that song has existed for almost 200 years.  whether or not it was “official” per the government is immaterial.  the song is ABOUT something.  it REPRESENTS something.

are you saying it’s no big deal to drag the flag on the ground because that tradition is somewhat recent?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 06:47 PM ET

This is the “Star-Spangled Banner” being played before a hockey game.

it doesn’t matter when/where it’s being played.  you should respect it and honor it no matter what.

Again, maybe to you, Minister of Proper Patriotism.

I’m not the one who is setting up these traditions of respect and honor.  I am simply the messenger to you.

For me, there is context.

and that is sad.  the sacrifices of so many in order to secure YOUR PERSONAL FREEDOMS should not have any context, whether you’re at a war memorial or on the toilet.

I’m not entirely sure the “Star Spangled Banner” is a solemn lament for every fallen soldier. It’s a song about the flag and the country and its words were set to a “popular British drinking song,” which should get you really worked up when you stew on that one for a while.

look at my previous post about when and where the song was first written.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 06:49 PM ET

Now, you’ve got me dishonoring soldier’s funerals

you need to work on your reading comprehension.  I asked if you would, and assumed you would not.  so why can you be respectful of tradition in one setting and not in another?

ould never hoot and holler at a soldier’s funeral . . . just as I wouldn’t treat a Friday night at the United Center like it was someone’s wake .

it shouldn’t matter to you where you are when you hear it.  it’s sad that it does.  it should mean the same thing to you.

remember, you have the right and ability to enjoy a Friday night at the United Center EXACTLY BECAUSE OF THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS WHO FOUGHT FOR YOU.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 06:50 PM ET

IT’S A CELEBRATION, man.

no, it’s not.  it’s a moment of silence for you to reflect on exactly why you have the ability to enjoy a hockey game as a free American.  this is the point, and it is wasted on you.

but hey, most soldiers would say that they gladly make those sacrifices to give you the freedom to be an ignorant jackass.

if it weren’t clear already, these things are very important to me.  I think they should be very important to everyone.  that you are trying to downplay the importance or the symbolism or the tradition is reprehensible IMO.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 06:52 PM ET

if it weren’t clear already, these things are very important to me.  I think they should be very important to everyone.  that you are trying to downplay the importance or the symbolism or the tradition is reprehensible IMO.

Paul, I am going to try to give you a break since I am guessing you are either a vet or you may have lost a family member who was serving our nation.

This year and for part of last year, the Hawks have had two vets stand beside Jim Cornelison for the singing of the Anthem. One is an older vet of WWII or Korean War or Vietnam War vintage. The other is a younger vet, most likely Desert Storm or the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Often, the camera will pan across Cornelison to the vets, and maybe once every two or three anthems, viewers can spot a tear forming in the eye of one of the vets . . . sometimes running down his/her cheek.

If the actions of the fans represented such an abomination and betrayed a total lack of understanding of what sacrifices had been made, why, then, would they be so moved? Answer that, PaulinMiamiBeach . . . if you can.

Is there just a small chance that the vets are moved by the production and the rousing response of the members of the audience??

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 07:07 PM ET

If the actions of the fans represented such an abomination and betrayed a total lack of understanding of what sacrifices had been made, why, then, would they be so moved? Answer that, PaulinMiamiBeach . . . if you can.

Is there just a small chance that the vets are moved by the production and the rousing response of the members of the audience??

is there a chance they are simply ignoring the idiotic fans and are moved by the song and memories of friends and family members who have sacrificed everything, and what the song means to them and represents?

the answer to both questions is yes, there is a chance.  to know which, you’d have to ask them.

by the way, did you happen to notice that THOSE VETS ARE SILENT DURING THE SINGING OF THE ANTHEM?!

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 07:26 PM ET

that you are trying to downplay the importance or the symbolism or the tradition is reprehensible IMO.

Okay, dude, what’s really reprehensible to me is you insisting on grafting your own feelings onto the Anthem and insisting that everyone march in lockstep with you on this. Hand on heart. Total silence. Quiet those babies . . . what are they, commies?

Until today, I’ve never heard anyone insist on absolute silence during the Anthem . . . Never. I can only imagine what you might think of artists who dared to reinterpret the anthem somewhat . . . like Jose Feliciano or Marvin Gaye . . . because there’s only one way to sing it, right?

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 07:35 PM ET

So wait… what everyone seems to be saying here is that playing “The Star Spangled Banner” before a game is wrong, but somehow “O’ Canada” is ok?  I have yet to see someone mention “O’ Canada”...  nobody thinks it’s stupid when Edmonton fans sing along to “O’ Canada” now do they?  In fact, I’m pretty sure they’re applauded and called fine Canadians that love their country.

Mmmm, double-standards…  sucks when they get pointed out, doesn’t it?

Look.  The National Anthem is played before EVERY sporting event in this country, at almost every level.  Not just hockey.  It gets played before little league baseball games.  It gets played before high school basketball games.

It’s how we do things in this country.

If you don’t like it, don’t watch games in the US, and/or leave.

Posted by Primis on 03/08/10 at 08:55 PM ET

It’s something the fans started doing because they were so pumped up before a 1985 Campbell Conference playoff game against the Edmonton Oilers

How’d that work out?
44 goals against in that series. You would think they would stop just because of that fact alone.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 03/08/10 at 09:02 PM ET

grafting your own feelings onto the Anthem and insisting that everyone march in lockstep with you on this. Hand on heart. Total silence. Quiet those babies . . . what are they, commies?

it’s not MY feelings.  it’s an established tradition.

Until today, I’ve never heard anyone insist on absolute silence during the Anthem

go read up on the military code of conduct during the anthem.

I can only imagine what you might think of artists who dared to reinterpret the anthem somewhat .

I don’t particularly like it when people screw with it too much.  but it’s not THAT terrible.

It’s how we do things in this country.

and keeping your fat *#$%@& mouth shut, taking off your hat, standing up, and facing the flag is ALSO how we (used to) do things in this country.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/08/10 at 09:27 PM ET

At this point, Paul, we’re beating the bones of dead horses.

Let’s agree to disagree on this one. And I’ll hope to not cross paths with you or your Wings this Spring.

And if I return to the Joe for some playoff action, I’ll think of you while I remain totally silent during the Anthem, just like Joe Nobody in the empty seat next to me.

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 09:41 PM ET

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 09:41 PM ET

The point is, “America… Fuch yeah!”

Also, Chelsea Dagger needs to go.  I don’t know how Blackhawks goals at the UC don’t cause a swarm of leaping fans from the upper bowl every time.  That song makes me want to pee myself.

Posted by Incognetis from Delaware... Hi... I'm in... Delaware on 03/08/10 at 10:27 PM ET

Also, Chelsea Dagger needs to go.  I don’t know how Blackhawks goals at the UC don’t cause a swarm of leaping fans from the upper bowl every time. 

Agreed. It’s bad. It has to be ‘retired,’ if you follow me.

I’d nominate Black Sabbath’s “Supernaut”  . . . or maybe the Electric Six’s “I Buy The Drugs.”

Plus, don’t overcommit to one song. Play one for a while . . .following the goals . . . have a few chortles and then move on to something else. Every time Luongo comes to town, you better have two or three ready . . . otherwise you wear out the grooves.

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/08/10 at 10:36 PM ET

it seems NHL arenas are a tad behind the times when it comes to licensing songs.  the Wings seriously need to pay for something newer than 1995.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/09/10 at 12:10 AM ET

People who worship man made borders and hollow symbols are the problem. It’s why nobody ever learns from history and every empire falls. Blind “patriotism” towards a nation-state, no matter what supposed values it represents to you, is what’s really childish.

That’s exactly what sports are for. They give us an outlet to pledge nonsensical blind allegiance towards something with a symbol and a uniform and hate the other side for no real reason at all and then go to war with them, pouring our heart and soul into the battle. That’s what we all are doing here. But guess what… these wars are fun and games. We leave the stadium and that’s that.

In the real world, when your heart and soul is focused on songs that glorify warfare and ambiguous symbols that may mean “freedom” to you but mean “slavery” to others, you’re missing the point. The whole reason this country is supposedly so great is precisely because it’s striving for freedom and the right to happiness for ALL MANKIND. Patriotism and Nationalism (which aren’t as different as you suggest) are, by definition, complete contradictions to these values. And anthems symbolize this… they symbolize the division of people.

I’m sure PaulMiamiBeach and others find these statements treasonous. But you are thankfully the past. The idea that the new generations are beginning to see through the facades of empty symbols like anthems and flags is a sign of hope to me. The fact that we are socializing with folks in other countries right on this board in essentially real time symbolizes this as well. Our world is no longer about division, it’s about coming together.

Save the homer-ism for our respective hockey teams. Go WINGS!! DIE Hawks (especially you Hossa… money-grubbing traitor!)!!!!!

(and this is with all due respect to those in the military, etc. who feel strongly that they are fighting for something sacred. YOU ARE! you are all heroes to me… I just think actual VALUES and actual PEOPLE are what you’re fighting for, not hollow symbols of a dying empire.)

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 03/09/10 at 01:48 AM ET

it seems NHL arenas are a tad behind the times when it comes to licensing songs.  the Wings seriously need to pay for something newer than 1995.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/09/10 at 12:10 AM ET

That just means they’d play even more Nickelback.  And nobody wants or deserves that punishment…

I think the Joe actually does a decent job with music and goal horns and such.  Have you seen or heard what some other teams skate out to?  Or what they play during games?  Vancouver sometimes skates out to a guy playing a flute or something… what a way to get pumped!

Besides Paul, have oyu heard the music at a Lions game at Ford Field?  I’m pretty sure Motown sound is the newest thing they play there…. not kidding.

Posted by Primis on 03/09/10 at 08:15 AM ET

Blind “patriotism” towards a nation-state, no matter what supposed values it represents to you, is what’s really childish.

BLIND patriotism, yes.  REAL patriotism - based on knowledge and understanding of sacrifices made by those who came before you, to give you a great country to live in - no.  not childish at all.

They give us an outlet to pledge nonsensical blind allegiance towards something with a symbol and a uniform and hate the other side for no real reason at all and then go to war with them, pouring our heart and soul into the battle.

what a pessimistic way to look at sports.  competition is healthy.  it breeds excellence.  this country is successful economically exactly because of this idea.

Patriotism and Nationalism (which aren’t as different as you suggest) are, by definition, complete contradictions to these values.

how is patriotism toward a country that strives for freedom around the world - and not just in words but in actions - a contradiction to the values of freedom?

The idea that the new generations are beginning to see through the facades of empty symbols like anthems and flags is a sign of hope to me.

the fact that you see them as empty symbols is patently disgusting.  there is nothing empty about the millions who have died for YOUR right to say these things.  can you grasp that?  can you put yourself in THEIR shoes and comprehend the kind of person it takes to fight and DIE for other people’s freedoms?

YOU ARE! you are all heroes to me… I just think actual VALUES and actual PEOPLE are what you’re fighting for, not hollow symbols of a dying empire

you’ve got it backwards.  they ARE fighting for us.  they are not fighting for the symbols.  the symbols are for US to recognize THEIR sacrifice.  there is nothing hollow about them.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 03/09/10 at 08:28 AM ET

I’m pretty sure Motown sound is the newest thing they play there…. not kidding.

That, and Kid Rock.  Shudder.

Posted by Incognetis from Delaware... Hi... I'm in... Delaware on 03/09/10 at 09:23 AM ET

i’m not even going to begin to dissect your last post Paul. I obviously have retorts for every comment you made, but I wasn’t setting out to convince you of what I’m saying. Your view is the majority in this country, no doubt and these are values you were raised with. You are clearly from an era where you were bombarded with cold war propaganda touting how freedom and patriotism are innately intertwined and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a commie. It’s like religion, there’s no point in arguing. Of course you think you’re right!

I was simply saying that I actually respect the meaning you find in the songs and colors and symbols and flags and traditions. Fine. If these things move you and make you think of kids bravely dying so that you aren’t a Nazi slave, than by all means, stand and proudly sing at the top of your lungs. But, you have to realize that others see things differently and have that shared sense of respect. The reason that I can respect your views is because I have the ability to step out of myself and see things from your perspective. You should try it. In the big picture, my reasons for thinking the national anthem is an outdated ode to war and imperialism (and therefore the OPPOSITE of freedom) are just as valid as yours because we have different worldviews.

So if I’m next to you at a game and completely ignoring the national anthem, please don’t be offended. And at the same time, I won’t tell you to sit down and shut up because you are offending native americans, african americans, and every other population in the world who has had ‘American’ values shoved down their throat with lethal weaponry.

You celebrate freedom and prosperity for all mankind the way you do it and I’ll do it the way I do it… then we can say cheers and enjoy the game as fellow HUMANS.

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 03/09/10 at 03:24 PM ET

Fine. If these things move you and make you think of kids bravely dying so that you aren’t a Nazi slave, than by all means, stand and proudly sing at the top of your lungs.

That’s actually the issue that started this whole sordid affair. We have come full circle. Paul stands opposed to any noise-making or cheering during the Anthem. It should/must be met with total silence. [sarcasm] You just might have more in common with Paul than you realize.[/sarcasm]

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/09/10 at 03:57 PM ET

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/09/10 at 03:57 PM ET

Shit, I was hoping we’d be able to get through one entire argument about patriotism without somebody suggesting that another is a Nazi.  Thanks for screwing it up for the rest of us.

For the record.  I was raised in a military family.  Through my job, I work closely with the military.  I am definitely part of the generation that was raised to shut up, stand up, take off your cover, and cover your heart every time the Star Spangled Banner is played.  I still do that and I’ve spent plenty of time getting annoyed at people who jabber on during the anthem.  As far as it ties to this post, I see this as a geographically special American tradition not intended to be a great show of disrespect to anybody.

What the argument has become is whether people should be respectful of the anthem at all as whether it’s empty symbolism or among the last bastions of respect that people are losing.

Personally, I think if you make noises during the National Anthem, regardless of when it’s played, you’re being rude (special geographical circumstances aside, naturally).  I think it’s particularly poignant that we’re arguing about being rude during a song chosen as the national anthem of a country that fights for the right to do so.

Ultimately, my loyalty is to the Constitution.  While I think people should be quiet during the National Anthem while it’s played (regardless of whether it should be or not), I’m only bothered by the assumed rudeness, not by a person’s lack of patriotism.  If I have to watch a flag touch the ground or even burn one myself to protect another American’s right to be a jerk in my eyes, then so be it.

Finally, and above all, I think I’d like to try to salvage Perfection’s point before he reached out the olive branch while subtly describing why the end he was holding was better.  I think it’s more important to be a good person than to be a good American.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 03/09/10 at 04:34 PM ET

FYI, that wasn’t me . . .

Posted by eternal_fields on 03/09/10 at 06:09 PM ET

misunderstanding - read carefully, nobody called anyone a Nazi. i was actually referring to actual German Nazi’s in the 40’s. simply an example of something that me, you, paul and eternal, all probably despise and are glad allies defeated.

and again, i totally respect where you’re coming from J.J. and appreciate your last line. I don’t think everyone in this country agrees with that by the way. and in fact, i think harping on concepts like patriotism tends to make people lose site of that.

you talk about defending “another American’s right to be a jerk” and to me, I’d rather defend another human’s right to not be a jerk. that is, i’ll defend an innocent child who happens to be Iranian, Syrian, Venezuelan, North Korean, or whatever over a JERK who happens to be American.

again… it comes down to the good person thing. i could care less what man made borders you happen to be born between.

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 03/09/10 at 07:31 PM ET