“I think he (Winter) was hoping for something higher,” Holland said. “I told him this was as high as I could go before I had to start dismantling (the roster).”

Must be that Winter doesn’t own a calculator. Anyone who has one (or uses the Salary Cap Calculator at CapGeek.com) could figure out what the Wings can afford.

And as for Tick Tock’s comment about not being able to afford more than $4M-$5M without “dismantling the team”, I don’t see how he can pay even that much without major changes. The scenario below has Hossa at $4.5M and requires saying goodbye to Sammy and trading Happy, Fil and Lilja (or Lilja simply missing next year for health reasons).

FORWARDS:
Pavel Datsyuk: 6,700,000
Henrik Zetterberg: 6,083,333
Marian Hossa: 4,500,000
Johan Franzen: 3,954,545
Daniel Cleary: 2,800,000
Tomas Holmstrom: 2,250,000
Kris Draper: 1,583,333
Ville Leino: 1,000,000
Kirk Maltby: 883,333
Justin Abdelkader: 850,000
Darren Helm: 599,444
Tomas Kopecky: 575,000

DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom: 7,450,000
Brian Rafalaski: 6,000,000
Brad Stuart: 3,750,000
Niklas Kronwall: 3,000,000
Jonathan Ericsson: 900,000
Brett Lebda: 650,000
Derek Meech: 483,333

GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood: 1,416,666
Jimmy Howard: 716,666

ROSTER SIZE: 21
BONUS MONEY OWED: 165,000
SALARY CAP: 56,800,000
PAYROLL: 56,145,653
CAP ROOM:  654,347

Even that scenario leaves the Wings with only 21 guys and just $654k in cap space. So, please, Kenny, thank Marian for his efforts this year and send him on his way. Please.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 06/27/09 at 09:54 AM ET

Hossa is not worth breaking up an already very good team. Just let him go.

Posted by cs6687 on 06/27/09 at 10:01 AM ET

Agree, OlderThan.  Thanks for the year, now go pick yourself up a monster contract somewhere else.

Posted by Garth on 06/27/09 at 10:30 AM ET

Wow, I’ve heard of a mercenary, but how selfish can this guy be?
If he wants to play for the Wings, a good choice in my opinion, he’s going to have to do it at a discount.  He can’t expect the Wings to start shedding salary and shredding their roster like crazy just for him.
I wish more players would take a page out of Leech’s book.  If one really likes a team and a city, then take a discount to play there.  Leech knew the true value of a million dollars.  He just really liked New York, he really wanted to play there, and he knew the team was about more than just him.

Posted by AvsRock from My timeshare in insanity... on 06/27/09 at 10:34 AM ET

but how selfish can this guy be?
If he wants to play for the Wings, a good choice in my opinion, he’s going to have to do it at a discount.  He can’t expect the Wings to start shedding salary and shredding their roster like crazy just for him

Give me a friggin break, man.  This amazes me, what assholes people can be.  He already TOOK a hefty discount to play for Detroit LAST year.  He had a $9M a year offer on the table from Edmonton.  He took a discount already, and now he’s being asked to take less than HALF of last year’s offer.  AFTER having a FORTY goal year!

Anyone whow would consider blaming him for not taking it is just being a dick.  Plain and simple.

Posted by Garth on 06/27/09 at 10:51 AM ET

Ok, Garth, no worries.  We’ll just agree to disagree.  I think…
I do have to ask, what would you like Hossa to do?
You’ve made two posts that are on each side of the coin.

Do you want him to stay with the Wings at the salary he wants?  He was a 40 goal scorer after all.  Or as you previously stated;

Thanks for the year, now go pick yourself up a monster contract somewhere else.
Posted by Garth on 06/27/09 at 11:30 AM ET

Or are you just picking my post to slag because I’m an Avs fan?
Kidding on the last question, I know the answer is yes…

Posted by AvsRock from My timeshare in insanity... on 06/27/09 at 10:59 AM ET

Or are you just picking my post to slag because I’m an Avs fan?
Kidding on the last question, I know the answer is yes…

Okay, I’m gonna have to give you a thumbs up on that last little bit.

Anyway, in his first post, I don’t think Garth was complaining that Hossa was asking for more than he’s worth. I think he was simply saying that Hossa (or maybe more correctly, Winter) can’t expect the Wings to dismantle their roster to keep him. His second post was more a response to the comment about Hossa being “selfish” (which he clearly wasn’t last season).

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 06/27/09 at 11:10 AM ET

On the market he’s still worth a ton to someone, so I don’t think he’s really hurt himself if he wants to make the big bucks, but the questions are whether he still thinks the Wings are his best chance to win the cup and whether he takes 1/2 the money to try.

Posted by dip on 06/27/09 at 11:32 AM ET

Not worth it. If Hossa really wants to be a Wing, he can have 3.5 and that’s that. If he doesn’t, no hard feelings, he’s worth a lot more, so I wouldn’t blame him. But they can let him walk, re-sign Sammy and Hudler, sign a Drake-type player, and have the same team that won the ‘08 Cup.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 06/27/09 at 12:02 PM ET

Thanks for the clarification OTC.
I sit corrected.

Posted by AvsRock from My timeshare in insanity... on 06/27/09 at 12:27 PM ET

OTC, Nathan and cs6687 are all right.  I don’t see how the Wings can afford to keep Hossa at $4.5 million without moving someone.  I have been playing with the Wings roster in an excel spreadsheet for a year trying to find a way to make it work, and it just isn’t going to.

I think Holland is doing the right thing by pitching an offer to Hossa at $4.5 million a season just to see what he says, but I wouldn’t blame Hossa if he didn’t take it. He is easily worth $8+ million a season on the open market, and you can’t blame a guy for taking that kind of money.  Thanks for the great season!  Take the bank, man!

If he does sign at $4.5, the Wings will have to bring up Helm, Leino, McCarty and Meech to fill out the rest of the line-up and they will have to get rid of some people.  I bet they trade Wally and his $3 million contract for some prospects or draft picks so they can fill-out their Grand Rapids roster with NHL ready players who can fill a line-up hole in a pinch.  If I were a GM I would take Wally for some minor leaguers, that is a steal. 

But if Hossa doesn’t sign, the Wings will have exactly the same line-up they had when they won the cup, minus Drake and plus Leino. (and of course, minus Hasek).

Here is what a Wings roster looks like with Hossa in it:

Forwards:
Datsyuk ($6.7)
Zetterberg ($6.083)
Hossa ($4.5)
Franzen ($3.954)
Cleary ($2.8)
Holmstom ($2.25)
Draper ($1.583)
Samuelsson ($1)
Leino ($0.9)
McCarty ($0.575)
Maltby ($0.883)
Helm ($0.598)

Minor League:
Downey
Abdelkader
?????

Defense:
Lidstrom ($7.45)
Rafalski ($6)
Stuart ($3.75)
Kronwall ($3)
Ericsson ($1.25)
Lebda ($0.65)
Meech ($.483)

Goal:
Osgood ($1.417)
Howard ($0.717)

As you can see, this shows the Wings trading Filpulla and nor re-signing Hudler or Kopecky, and most likely losing Lilja because of his injury.  The Lilja situation does some weird stuff to the cap, essentially his salary still counts against the cap, but whoever they bring up to replace him does not as long as their salary is less than or equal to Lilja’s.  So Ericsson’s salary doesn’t count against the cap, but Lilja’s does…that’s why Ericsson’s salary is listed as $1.25 Million rather than $900,000.  Also, notice the Wings will only be able to ice 7 D-men.

That puts the Wings total salary at $56.543 Million and with $257,000 in cap space…essentially no room for error.

I’m not saying this is what is going to happen or what I want to have happen, but if Hossa signs at $4.5, this is the closest the Wings could get to having him and not selling the farm (if you consider getting rid of Filpulla, Hudler, Kopecky, and Lilja not trading the farm).

Posted by John from Pittsburgh, PA (Wings fan for life!) on 06/27/09 at 12:51 PM ET

OTC, the main difference between your roster and mine is that you assume Lilja will retire, and I do not.  If Lilja retires, the Wings could make this work with $650,000 in cap space.  That is enough to make it through the season if the team stays relatively healthy.  If not….they will run into some problems and have to play some games short handed like they did this year.

I like Lilja, but if his head doesn’t get any better by the summer, he should retire.  As someone who dealt with concussions before, they are not fun and they are very unpredictable.  If it is not better by August, there is no reason to think that it will be better any time within the next couple of years or that he will be able to play hockey again once symptoms go away.

Posted by John from Pittsburgh, PA (Wings fan for life!) on 06/27/09 at 12:56 PM ET

I get the feeling I am the only one posting on this thread right now, but whatever, haha.

Here is the contract I have been assuming the Wings would offer Hossa:

Year - Salary-Age
1     -    $7   - 31
2     -    $7   - 32
3     -    $7   - 33
4     -    $7   - 34
5     -    $7   - 35
6     -    $6   - 36
7     -    $5   - 37
8     -    $3   - 38
9     -    $2   - 39
10   -    $1   - 40
11   -    $1   - 41
12   -    $1   - 42

Cap Hit: $4.5

If the Wings add another year at $1 Million and pay Hossa $6 Million at 35 instead of $7, the cap hit is $4.15, freeing up the room they need for their minor leaguers.

Posted by John from Pittsburgh, PA (Wings fan for life!) on 06/27/09 at 01:09 PM ET

AvsRock: OTC basically covered it, but I’ll say it plainly: he’s WORTH (in a vaccuum) at least what he made last year.  But as a Wings fan, I don’t think we need him, and especially not at that price.  I loved him in the jersey (minus the Finals…) and I wish him the best, but I can’t see a way to work him in and keep the core of the team together.

And on a slightly different topic, I sincerely want to PUNCH anyone talking about getting rid of Flip.  He’s getting better every year, and he seriously stepped up his game when Datsyuk was out, so WHY would anyone want to get rid of him?  I’d rather keep him at his price.

Working under the assumption that Lilja is healthy, we’d have 8 d-men, so we can send Meech down, and assuming that Helm, Leino and Abby stay up, we’d have about $2M to fill one forward spot.  Add Hudler in at a comparable salary and you’ve got your roster.  I’m not 100% positive that Abby will be with the big club for good, so if you take him out of the mix, you add $850K in space, still about $2M to fill that last forward spot.

John, I’ve got a couple issue with your roster:
1) trading Flip.  Better not happen.
2) Ericsson’s cap hit is 900K, not 1.25M
3) if you think McCarty’s going to be on the permanent roster, you’re plainly out of your mind.

Here’s a look at a possible 21-man roster that doesn’t blow anything up, and gives as slight raise to Hudler:

FORWARDS
Pavel Datsyuk   $6,700,000
Henrik Zetterberg   $6,083,333
Johan Franzen   $3,954,545
Valtteri Filppula   $3,000,000
Daniel Cleary   $2,800,000
Tomas Holmstrom   $2,250,000
Kris Draper   $1,583,333
Jiri Hudler   $1,250,000
Kirk Maltby   $883,333
Ville Leino   $875,000
Justin Abdelkader   $850,000
Darren Helm   $599,444
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom   $7,450,000
Brian Rafalaski   $6,000,000
Brad Stuart   $3,750,000
Niklas Kronwall   $3,000,000
Andreas Lilja   $1,250,000
Jonathan Ericsson   $900,000
Brett Lebda   $650,000
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood   $1,416,666
Jimmy Howard   $716,666

ROSTER SIZE   21
SALARY CAP   $56,800,000
PAYROLL   $55,962,320
CAP ROOM   $837,680

We lose Hossa and Sammy, Happy gets a slight upgrade and we add Ericsson, Helm, Leino, Abby to the big boy full roster.

Obvisously, there’s a question about Lilja…he’s had his symptoms for a long time…  Should something come to a head and he doesn’t play, you add his $1.25M.  Either way, we’d still have a solid 6 guy corps.

So, with him on the roster, we have $800K of space, without him we have $2M or so.  If he’s on the IR to begin the season we have Meech up as the 7th defenseman.

We don’t need to spend that extra 800K-2M, but we have it if we need it.  And we don’t break the boys up because of Hossa a year before we might have to break the boys up again to sign/replace a handful of OTHER players (ie. Lidstrom. Helm, a couple defensemen).

Posted by Garth on 06/27/09 at 01:14 PM ET

Oops, I missed your comment on the Ericsson salary, John.  My bad.

Also, I don’t think they’re that worried about the size of the roster.  They only had 7 D up at any time last year, and it worked out OK.

Posted by Garth on 06/27/09 at 01:18 PM ET

If I were a GM I would take Wally for some minor leaguers, that is a steal.

And that’s exactly the reason I don’t think the Hossa signing will happen at any price if it costs the Wings Fil. Babs loves the kid, and he showed in this year’s playoffs that he’s right on the verge of becoming the type of player the Wings projected he would become.

OTC, the main difference between your roster and mine is that you assume Lilja will retire, and I do not.

I didn’t assume Lilja would retire. I suggested that, in order to sign Hossa at even the bargain rate of $4.5M, Lilja would either be traded or he would sit out the year because of his concussion problems.

As for your line-up with Hossa at $4.5M, I see you have Sammy at $1M. There’s absolutely no way he’s signing for less than what he made this year. The word is he’s put his house in Detroit up for sale and he’ll be moving on. He’ll probably get somewhere in the $2.0+M range from some team that needs a solid two-way player that can log both PK and PP time.

Just a suggestion, John, but try the Salaray Cap Calculator at CapGeek.com instead of the spreadsheet. They automatically factor in things like bonus money. And keep in mind that you need 22 guys that can fit under the $56.8M cap with at least $600k to spare in order to call up someone like D-Mac or Downey in an emergency.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 06/27/09 at 01:19 PM ET

More Hossa talk here from LeBrun.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 06/27/09 at 01:24 PM ET

Working under the assumption that Lilja is healthy, we’d have 8 d-men, so we can send Meech down, and assuming that Helm, Leino and Abby stay up, we’d have about $2M to fill one forward spot.  Add Hudler in at a comparable salary and you’ve got your roster.

Nice try, Garth, but Meech is out of options…and he’d never clear waivers. So he’s either on the roster or he’ll get traded. Personally, I think he’ll stay because he can play both as a D and as a forward.

As for signing Happy at $1.25M, what are you smoking?

The kid had 23 goals and 57 points playing about 13 minutes a game. If he goes to arbitration, he’ll easily get $2M. And it would be no surprise to see some team hand him an offer sheet in the $2.5M range, or even a bit less (knowing that the Wings would have a hard time matching it). And the compensation for anything between $1.3M and $2.6M is just a 2nd-round pick. Pretty cheap for someone like Happy.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 06/27/09 at 01:33 PM ET

From the LeBrun article (thanks, Paul):

“I talked to Rich Winter on Kopecky and it appears he’s going to hit the open market,” said Holland. “I made an offer, but he’s hoping to do a lot better than what we offered.”

Good luck with that, Kopy. I’m not sure an oft-injured guy with six goals in 79 games is going to get more than the $750k or so that Kenny probably offered him. But we’ll see.

Regardless of what he gets, the Wings just lost a valuable 4th-line guy with some size and grit. Ahem. Excuse me, Mr Laperriere. Ken Holland on the line for you.

Interesting note from the LeBrun piece on Sammy. Looks like they are still trying to sign him. He’ll have to give up a hefty chunk of change to stay. But maybe he can’t sell his house in the current housing market so he figures he might as well stay. 

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 06/27/09 at 01:47 PM ET

OTC, althought I would hate it to happen, Lappy would be a fantastic pickup for the Wings on the fourth line.  You could get him for around or less than two mil and the grit, passion, leadership, as well as work ethic will boost any team.
Not to mention, what he would do for the Detroit community and kids is something that city could really use about now.  Not to say the Wings players don’t do anything, but Lappy was the first there and the last to leave for any and every charity event the Avs were a part of.  For the holiday season, he pretty much lived at the Children’s Hospital.  He was there that much.
He won’t score more than 15-20 points a season, but you don’t get Lappy for his scoring touch.  You get him for everything else, on and off the ice.

Posted by AvsRock from My timeshare in insanity... on 06/27/09 at 02:07 PM ET

...Lappy would be a fantastic pickup for the Wings on the fourth line.  You could get him for around or less than two mil ...

Thanks for the info about the off-ice side of Ian. That philosophy would fit perfectly with the overall philosophy of Mr. I and the whole Wings organ-I-zation. But there’s no way the Wings would offer him anything close to $2M. If he joins the Wings, it’ll be for just under a mil for one year. And he’d do it for the same reasons Dallas Drake did it two summers ago…to have a shot at winning the Cup before he retires.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 06/27/09 at 02:28 PM ET

“Nice try, Garth, but Meech is out of options…and he’d never clear waivers. So he’s either on the roster or he’ll get traded. Personally, I think he’ll stay because he can play both as a D and as a forward.”

I think the only way he stays is if Lilja retires or stays on the IR.  The Wings clearly weren’t wowed by him at all this year.  He stayed up only because of his swing man ability, but he played fewer games in the playoffs than 742 year old Chris Chelios did.  I think that says more about what the Wings think of him than anything.  If Lilja’s able to play then I think they try to trade him and worst case, they lose him to waivers and maybe he ends up on a defense pairing with Kyle Quincey.

Of course, if Lilja IS healthy and able to play, you’ve got 7 full-time NHL d-men WITHOUT counting Meech and one of them has to sit out because I can’t see them dressing 7 on a regular basis, so maybe they try to move Lebda or Lilja and keep Meech as the swingman.

As for Happy, you’re probably right.  I basically had him as a placeholder.  He seems to love playing for the Wings and I’m sure he knows that if he wants to stay here, he’s going to get a small raise and not much more.  If he gets a $2.5M-$3M offer sheet, he’s gone and we’ll take whatever pick(s) are the compensation.  He hasn’t earned a contract that would be in the Kronwall/Flip/Cleary area, especially since he’ll be on the third line, maybe 4th next year.  All we’d have to do is point to what Sammy was making this year and say take it or leave it.

And if we don’t keep Happy, then we can add the $1.25M I alotted him to the free space, bringing it up to over $2M free, and you could add Lilja’s contract if he’s unable to play.

For that money, you could easily have Laperriere, of you could take that $2-2.5M and offer it to Chad LaRose.

I think there are a fair number of legitimate options for the Wings, and none of them included keeping Hossa around, as far as I’m concerned.

Posted by Garth on 06/27/09 at 04:22 PM ET