This guy is calling out moves by other teams in the East that he thinks are bad when the move to get Hossa was obsurd, especially knowing He was only a rental player.  I did not know that Satan and Fedotenko are the 2nd comings of Messier and Greztky.

Posted by RobZ on 07/05/08 at 09:17 AM ET

I said when the Pens made that trade that it was stupid because of the young players they gave up, given that I didn’t think they could win the Cup anyways with their blue line that is only slightly above average.

Dumb trade, and obviously, as a Wings fan, I don’t even feel a little bad for the Pens.

Posted by Nathan on 07/05/08 at 09:34 AM ET

Was it a bad trade?  If penguins would have won it would have been a great trade!  Thats the risk you take.  Armstrong and christensen would have commanded quite a bit to keep as well, and since they have to also resign staal (and letang soon) they needed to send those guys out.

Posted by callmedrw on 07/05/08 at 09:58 AM ET

You guys are both morons, if the Pens would have won the cup it would have been the trade of the year and Shero would have been the miracle man…

Great Nathan, your a wings fan, but when your team has another 5 years of misery of losing in the first round after being the top seed, dont come crying on here saying that acquiring Hossa was a bad move….

Blue line that is slightly above average is also a joke, the only team in the Nhl that can rival the defense the Pens have was the redwings and thats because Nick Lindstrom is a God on skates…

The Pens will be fine next year if they can pick up one more player and drop Sydor….

Look for the Pens in the Finals again and the Redwings at home watching them after getting routed 4-1 by the Sharks in the first round….

Posted by Aaron on 07/05/08 at 09:58 AM ET

It wasn’t obsurd, the Hossa trade got them to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Armstrong and Christensen were role players and third-liners at best. The first-round pick was 29th overall, we’ll see how that turns out. Angelo Esposito hasn’t played up to expectations as of yet. He might not even make the Thrashers roster next year.

Joe Starkey never said Satan and Fedetenko were the “second coming of Gretsky and Messier”. He implied that there was a possibility that they both could score 20 or more goals playing on a line with Crosby or Malkin.

The Penguins still have Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Staal, Orpik, Whitney and Letang returing. They’ll improve through experience. The Penguins should be the favorite in the Eastern Conference going into next year.

Posted by Shero knows what he's doing. on 07/05/08 at 10:01 AM ET

The value of the Hossa trade still won’t be able to be called “dumb” or “good” by anyone for a number of years. We need to see how Esposito pans out. If he’s an impact player, than perhaps they got burned. On the other hand, it’s well documented that players like Satan wanted to play on the Penguins. It’s likely that without Hossa, the Penguins may not have gone as far in the playoffs, and this impression might have been lost.

Besides, the basis of the articles is still true—the Penguins are still a pretty damn good team, even without Hossa. The only position I’m worrying about right now is in goal. Not because of Fleury because isn’t on path to being an elite goaltender, but because Sabourin is not. If Fleury gets hurt, we could be in trouble.

Posted by penguinsfan on 07/05/08 at 10:07 AM ET

*absurd*

*Lidstrom*

Now that that’s out of the way…

I think it was a good trade for Pittsburgh because Armstrong and Esposito and whoever would not have gotten the Penguins to the Finals, and Hossa did help them in that.  He was an excellent player for them throughout the playoffs, and even if they went into the playoffs thinking he was a rental fure certain and they had no chance of resigning him, it would have been worth it.  Sure the draft picks might look bad later one, but that’s always a chance you take.

I think about it like the trade the Detroit Tigers made in 1987 to get Doyle Alexander from Atlanta.  What they needed at the time was a veteran pitcher, and Alexander did his job perfectly, going 11-0 iirc down the stretch of the pennant race when the Tigers were fighting with the Blue Jays until the last game.  Yes, the Twinkies beat them in the playoffs, but without that 11-0 they wouldn’t have had the chance to advance to the playoffs because Toronto might have beaten them out for that spot.

The cost was a pitching prospect named John Smoltz.  Yes, it would have been outstanding to have him as a Tiger for all the intervening years, but he could have been injured, traded, left in free agency, or a bust - if you could see into the future then all trades would be perfectly assessed immediately.

Hossa got the Penguins farther in the playoffs than the players they gave up for him could have, and so he was worth it.  Even with the loss in the finals, and even with the loss of the players and picks.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/05/08 at 10:12 AM ET

fure = for

mea culpa

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/05/08 at 10:14 AM ET

...when your team has another 5 years of misery of losing in the first round after being the top seed, dont come crying on here saying that acquiring Hossa was a bad move….

Hey, Paul, you’ve got to make that the Line of the Day. It’s even more hilarious than the one about Burke and Lowe needed armed guards around the next time they meet.

As for Starkey’s point about the Pens being the best team in the East, he’s probably right on point. To that I’d only add…“and probably the third or fourth best team in the league.”

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 07/05/08 at 10:18 AM ET

I am staying out away from that line OTC.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 07/05/08 at 10:23 AM ET

There you go again being all fair and stuff, Paul. You’ve got to cut that out. 

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 07/05/08 at 10:26 AM ET

Wow, this is all over the place.

Hossa trade was good.  Getting to the finals is obviously a huge accomplishment, and the fact that they lost isn’t enough to make it a failure.  Furthermore, the Pens couldn’t even afford to keep a bunch of their current players—if those prospects they traded away turn out to be worth anything, how could they have kept those guys?  Years of the spectacular tanking gave them too much young talent to keep.  They made the right call to trade some of it away for a cup run before they lost it to the cap.

The Red Wings are definitely not the only team in the league that can rival the Pens’ defence.  There are two Conferences.

A lot of people underestimate the luck involved in winning the Stanley Cup.  If the Wings get bounced in the first round next year, there’s a good chance it won’t be because they’re a bad team.  Same goes for the Pens, or any other team.  The Ducks were, believe it or not, a pretty good team last year, and that fact didn’t change when the Stars seemed to score on every power play they had.

The Penguins may be the best in the East next year, and it looks like they should be, but the same was true of Ottawa last year.  Saying things like that is just as presumptuous as the people declaring the Red Wings the 2009 Cup Champs.  That’s why they play the games.

Posted by Ryan from Toronto on 07/05/08 at 10:47 AM ET

...if the Pens would have won the cup it would have been the trade of the year…

If.

...when your team has another 5 years of misery of losing in the first round after being the top seed, dont come crying on here saying that acquiring Hossa was a bad move…

What exactly leads you to believe that will happen? They’ve only lost in the first round three times since the 1995 Final appearance. Check your facts. On the other hand, the Pens have lost in the first round, or failed to qualify for the postseason seven times in that span. And that completely ignores the fact that the lockout saved the club both off the ice, and gave it Crosby all the while.

If Hossa is a bust in Detroit, I won’t come crying on here. Difference is, Ken Holland didn’t give up two youngsters and a revered prospect for Hossa. Trust me, if there’s a fanbase that has seen both great and awful deadline trades, it’s us.

Blue line that is slightly above average is also a joke, the only team in the Nhl that can rival the defense the Pens have was the redwings and thats because Nick Lindstrom is a God on skates…

1. NHL.
2. Red Wings.
3. Lidstrom.
4. I’m sorry, but the Pens lost in the Final because Detroit’s defense was significantly better, not just in their own end, but primarily because they had four guys that excelled at moving the puck up ice to their forwards quickly.

The Pens had two guys with that capability, but Whitney was a ghost in that series and Gonchar got busted up, and is a sham in his own end anyway. There is no comparison here. Detroit clearly has the best D in the league, with Anaheim, Dallas, and San Jose coming up closely. Does Pittsburgh have the best D in the East? Yes, but they’re still a rung below those first-tier defensive teams.

The Pens will be fine next year if they can pick up one more player and drop Sydor…

I think the Pens will be a very good team again. I think picking up another player and dropping Sydor is moot. Whether or not they can come out ahead of Montreal, Philly, the Rangers, and yes, the Devils, will depend on whether or not Fleury is the same goalie he was in the playoffs this past season.

Look for the Pens in the Finals again and the Redwings at home watching them after getting routed 4-1 by the Sharks in the first round….

Again, it’s “Red Wings”. If that Sharks team plays Detroit in the first round I’d be real surprised. I really don’t see the seeding lining up that way at all.

Certainly, anything is possible in the NHL. That’s why they play the games. Detroit has been on both sides of some improbable situations in recent memory. But what’s weak about your argument is that you’re claiming that because the Wings have lost in the first round before, that they will lose in it again. You fail to acknowledge that in the same period of time in which the Wings have lost three times in the first round, they’ve won the Stanley Cup FOUR times.

What happens this next season will be a result of things completely independent of why the Wings lost in the first round in seasons past, and why the Wings won the Cup in seasons past.

I will admit that after reading Baroque’s post, I do think that I spoke to soon saying the Hossa trade was completely dumb. Obviously, I have 20-20 vision of it being an outsider and looking back on it. But I admit that Shero took a big chance that paid off when you look at last season’s run. Hossa carried that team through more than a few games in the playoff run, especially that pair of games he had in the Final.

However, I still believe that the Pens, for having made that trade, and having lost Hossa to FA, are a worse team at the start of this year than they would’ve been had they kept those young assets. Obviously, it’s hard to have faith in streaky players like Satan and Fedotenko. At least Armstrong and Christensen provided nice speed and defensive work ethic, and were young players still coming into their own. And had they not made that deal for Hossa, Shero likely would’ve focused his attention to resigning Malone and maybe even your beloved Gary Roberts.

If at the deadline Shero would’ve traded Malone, Roberts, Armstrong, Christensen, and Esposito for Hossa, how would you have felt about it? Or Malone, Roberts, Armstrong, Christensen, and Esposito for Satan and Fedotenko?

To me, best case scenario is that Satan has a year like Sykora did last season.

I agree with Starkey that Pittsburgh is still a top team in the East. But I do feel they are coming into this season with less talent than they will likely go into this season with. But hey, there are still a few fish out there, so let’s wait and see. Even so, I think the Devils got a lot better, Philly can only become more consistent, Washington will probably not lose their first 20 games again, and Montreal boosted their depth at forward.

Posted by Nathan on 07/05/08 at 11:04 AM ET

The Penguins may be the best in the East next year, and it looks like they should be, but the same was true of Ottawa last year.

Disagree. I think with Philly and Washington likely being more consistent in ‘08-‘09, the slight improvements the Devils made (after all, they still have Marty), and the moves the Rangers made (I surprisingly like what they did, even though they overpaid tremendously for Redden), it’s tough to consider the Pens the best in the East going into the season. Montreal isn’t to shabby, and whether they’re a lower playoff seed or higher seed depends on a young goalie with a lot of talent… much like what the Pens’ season will heavily depend on.

I think that the Pens, Flyers, Habs, Rangers, Caps, and Devils are all very close to one another. I feel like I could give you a few great reasons why each of those teams should be the favorite in the East, and a few good reasons why each team could be considered somewhat weak.

Saying things like that is just as presumptuous as the people declaring the Red Wings the 2009 Cup Champs.  That’s why they play the games.

Agree. I am not one of the Wings fans that has said, or will say, that the Wings are definitely winning the Cup. If I were forced to put money on it, yes, it’s the obvious choice, but like you said, they play for a reason, and we Wings fans have seen this exact same story end in both frustration and elation before.

Posted by Nathan on 07/05/08 at 11:13 AM ET

I think the Montreal Canadiens may well disagree with this assessment.  Everyone seems to forget that, while they didn’t do much after July 1, beforehand, they added Alex Tanguay for a couple of picks.

Posted by Doogie2K from Calgary on 07/05/08 at 11:16 AM ET

Montreal needs a goalie before they compete with anyone there sparky.

Posted by PENS71 on 07/05/08 at 11:31 AM ET

Not to mention that Carey Price is going to be better with his added experience, and he was pretty good already (and bordering on spectacular at times).

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/05/08 at 11:32 AM ET

Price is no where near where he needs to be in order for them to compete.  He has an amazing upside, I just don’t think hes there yet for Montreal to compete for the East.

Posted by PENS71 on 07/05/08 at 11:35 AM ET

“Sparky?”  Cute.

Also, up until about February ‘08, Marc-Andre Fleury was no great hell, either.  Remember, Ty Conklin carried that team for two or three months.  I’d need to see him replicate his winning play from ‘08 over the course of a whole season before I totally believe he’s arrived.

Posted by Doogie2K from Calgary on 07/05/08 at 12:10 PM ET

Montreal needs a goalie before they compete with anyone there sparky.

How can you rely on Fleury on one hand, and slight Price in the other? Doesn’t make sense.

Price turned in a better rookie season than Fleury did, granted, with a better team in front of him. Fleury and Price both have a ton of talent, but I seem to remember, despite his record in ‘06-‘07, and despite his record last season after injury and in the playoffs, Pens fans and the MSM complaining about Fleury’s streakiness and inconsistency.

I’m not suggesting Fleury isn’t good. I think both Fleury and Price are excellent goalies and will be tops in the league with King Henrik for years to come. I AM suggesting that the difference between the two isn’t all that big. Certainly, give the edge to Fleury for his playoff experience and run last season. But remember, Montreal competed for the East last season on the strength of Price, not on his weakness. He was off against Philly, but Fleury wasn’t so hot against the Sens two seasons ago either.

Posted by Nathan on 07/05/08 at 12:11 PM ET

The main article reads as if the author is trying to convince and console himself as much as anything else.  I don’t see any convincing array of players or string of logic that would place the Pens as the class of the East.

They may ascend in the East as much due to the overwhelming mediocrity and lack of depth in the Conference as to a talented line up.

In advancing deep in the playoffs and winning it all there is a high degree of luck and good fortune in the form of injuries, and timely bounces and goals mixed in with depth, sacrifice and playing a disciplined patient defense.

MAF let in numerous soft goals in the Finals that gave the Wings a winning edge.  I wouldn’t go overboard making that a cornerstone of my next Cup run.

You try and stack things in your favor with talent and playmakers who can decide the game with a key play that few others can make, but it’s still a bit of a crapshoot.

Posted by RWBill from the Land of 12 in 12. on 07/05/08 at 01:36 PM ET

I know another goaltender named Carey that had a good rookie year too…. where is he?

Posted by callmedrw on 07/05/08 at 01:58 PM ET

Also, MAF isnt the reason the pens lost to detroit, but is the reason they made it that far.

Posted by callmedrw on 07/05/08 at 02:00 PM ET

Even so, I think the Devils got a lot better, Philly can only become more consistent, Washington will probably not lose their first 20 games again, and Montreal boosted their depth at forward.

I actually disagree with this. If Montreal adds Sundin, they will have boosted their depth at forward, but they haven’t so far. Adding the overpaid Alex Tanguay merely takes ice time away from someone like Higgins or Sergei Kostsitsyn.

I’d say the Devils got worse by replacing Brylin with the utterly spent Bobby Holik (and they didn’t do themselves any favors on D). Plus, Brodeur’s starting to show his age.

I think the Rangers got significantly worse in replacing Tyutin with Redden and Jagr with Naslund and Zherdev.
Philly probably treaded water.

Washington’s goaltending is more suspect than it was last year (even when Kolzig was the starter).

Is Pittsburgh as good as they were at season’s end? Doubtful. Better than they were before the ‘08 trade deadline (when the Penguins were 1st in the East)? I think so. Did anyone in the East get better? Only Ottawa (through subtraction) and Boston (healthier). Team to beat in the East? Still Pittsburgh. Team to win the Stanley Cup? Detroit, Anaheim, San Jose, Pittsburgh, Montreal…in that order.

Posted by Steve on 07/05/08 at 02:10 PM ET

Nathan, please tell me what the goalie situation is in Detroit..

Chris Osgood isnt gonna have the year of his life agian so whats that leave you with, a washed-up Hasek who looked like he wanted to give the series to the Predators…

Chris Osgood played amazing in the playoffs, pure amazing….but he will not be the goalie to lead you to the next cup

Posted by Aaron on 07/05/08 at 02:40 PM ET

Also, MAF isnt the reason the pens lost to detroit, but is the reason they made it that far.

Posted by callmedrw on 07/05 at 03:00 PM

Ouch, that doesn’t bode well because the skaters the Pens have left are not as good as what they had going into the playoffs in 08.

Posted by RWBill from the Land of 12 in 12. on 07/05/08 at 02:41 PM ET

@ Aaron:

You do realize that Hasek retired and Detroit signed Ty Conklin as the new backup, right?  He played pretty well when needed last season, I recall.

And as the defense is still excellent (one could argue it will be even better with Stuart on the second pair for the entire year), Osgood doesn’t need to have “the year of his life” again - he just has to do what any goaltender in Detroit needs to do - stay awake and stop the majority of the 12 or 16 shots he’ll see.

That’s all.  No need to be spectacular, just solid and reliable.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/05/08 at 03:00 PM ET

You’ve overvalued the hometown guys, Aaron. The Penguins have a very mediocre defense. I’m tempted to add the Blackhawks to your list of Anaheim, Dallas and San Jose, Nathan. And maybe the Canadians.

Posted by BobS. on 07/05/08 at 04:22 PM ET

Chris Osgood isnt gonna have the year of his life agian so whats that leave you with, a washed-up Hasek who looked like he wanted to give the series to the Predators…

Stop it! You Pens fan are killing me. Yet another entry in the Line of the Day contest.

Just for the record, Aaron, Ozzie has gotten better every year since the lockout because he took that time to completely revamp his style. Sure, the best defense in the League helped a LOT, but Ozzie also was solid in those stretches where the D faltered.

And as it’s been noted, Dom’s long gone. He’s in downtown Detroit hawking sports paraphernalia. We miss him, tough, in the same way you miss the feeling of hitting your thumb with a hammer. 

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 07/05/08 at 05:19 PM ET

Lol forgot about Conklin sorry Nate

Posted by Aaron on 07/05/08 at 05:22 PM ET

RWBill, you really think the pens are going to be worse off this time around?  Considering the entire core of the team is only going to get older and better. Plus shero may pick someone else up at the trade deadline just like w/Hossa.

And I think that anyone of us here could play net in detroit and be successful.

Posted by callmedrw on 07/05/08 at 05:41 PM ET

Nathan, I was going to point out every spelling, grammatical or syntax error that you made in your post as proof that you don’t know what you’re talking about, but then I realized that typos have nothing to do with the ability to prove a point, and pointing them out in online forums is just asinine.

Aside from that, I agree that the Wings will still be the team to beat in ‘09, no doubt. But you have to think that the Pens got better, if for no other reason than that Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Whitney, Letang and Fleury will all be one year older, one year closer to their primes as athletes and one run to the Stanley Cup Finals more experienced. The Pens D is not mediocre… it’s not the Wings’ D, but it does include Gonchar, who actually played quite well in his own end this season and should have been a Norris finalist by the counts of many experts, Whitney, who is still very young and still developing, and may have really come into his own in the Finals, Orpik, who proved that he’s an excellent skater, defensively responsible and a huge hitter, and Scuderi, who is quietly solid. It’s a good D, not mediocre. The talent at Forward really doesn’t even need to be discussed. The same way an ok goalie can excel behind Detroit’s defense, any good skater with a decent scoring touch can turn into a solid 30 goal scorer when they’re playing with Crosby or Malkin as their center. Those guys absolutely and significantly raise the play of every other player around them, and that is what makes them better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk. There’s no reason to believe that their maturation shouldn’t continue at an exponential rate, as their still only 20 and 21, and that will make the Penguins a significantly better team next year… Detroit can’t say the same about their big guns.

As for Fleury, after the way he’s played ever since his November of last year and throughout the playoffs, he deserves to be presumed an elite level goalie unless he proves otherwise with his play in the coming season. There’s no reason to think he won’t be one of the best in the league in ‘08-‘09, and no reason to think that any team has a decisive edge over the Penguins in the East. As for the West, the Penguins are as good as Anaheim, Dallas and San Jose. They were only a few bounces and a few lacking individual performances (at times) from being right there with Detroit in the Finals, and with the growth that their young core will undergo by the time the ‘09 playoffs roll around, they might be a lot of people’s Cup favorites by then.

Posted by bryan on 07/05/08 at 06:36 PM ET

Those guys absolutely and significantly raise the play of every other player around them, and that is what makes them better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

Que?

Z and Dats don’t make the players around them better? Holmstrom has been a consistent 30 goal producer because of them. Franzen had a huge surge after being on a line with them, as did Dan Cleary earlier in the year.

They were only a few bounces and a few lacking individual performances (at times) from being right there with Detroit in the Finals,

Perhaps, but one could also say that the Wings were a few poorly officiated games away from a sweep.

I’m not that knowledgeable about the East rankings, but the point of that article was to calm anyone freaking out and/or name calling Hossa. The Penguins were and are a good team that will contend next year.

If, however, the Wings meet them in the Finals again next year, I’d expect the same or even more convincing result.

Detroit can’t say the same about their big guns.

Aside from Lidstrom at 39, who is actually playing some of the best hockey of his career, our top guns are in the prime of their careers with several years left in that range. A lot of our younger players––Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Lebda, Helm, and a host of black aces–– got a lot of great experience and will be better for it. Also, the organization is deliberately built around retaining core veterans despite any drop in overall play. Chelios has become a defensive specialist, and Draper went from a Selke winner to a faceoff artist. The Wings , for the foreseeable future, will be pegged as aging and on the verge of a demise because of this strategy.

Good luck to your team; the Penguins and Caps are amongst my favorites to watch in the East.

Posted by Osrt on 07/05/08 at 07:11 PM ET

@Steve: Tanguay is overpaid?  How do you get that?

Posted by Doogie2K from Calgary on 07/05/08 at 07:34 PM ET

I wasn’t saying that Zetterberg and Datsyuk don’t improve the play of their linemates, just not as much as Crosby and Malkin do, or have the potential to do. And I never said Detroit was too old, just significantly older than the Pens. My point was that while the most talented players on the Red Wings are in their prime, and probably won’t improve significantly in coming years, the Penguins most talented players (who are, I think almost beyond argument, more naturally talented than Detroit’s), have a good 5 years of solid growth, maturation and improvement in them before they reach that peak. Therefore, the Penguins stand a much better chance of improving as a team without adding outside players.

Posted by bryan on 07/05/08 at 07:46 PM ET

Petr Sykora ... 2.5 Million 63 pts.
Alex Tanguay ... 5.375 Million 58 pts.

Enough Said

Posted by PENS71 from PA on 07/05/08 at 08:06 PM ET

Therefore, the Penguins stand a much better chance of improving as a team without adding outside players

Cool. I was, obviously, taking liberties with your arguments to clear up some other misconceptions. Regardless, I hope that talent translates into Championships.

Looking forward to a great season.

Posted by Osrt on 07/05/08 at 09:30 PM ET

These comments are going everywhere. The simple fact is that Joe Starky is right. The Pens WILL be the best in the east next year. Will they win the cup? Probably not unless Sid, Geno, and Staal all take yet another step forward and Fleury continues to play awesome.
Does this mean they are better than the Red Wings? No, not at all. Is he even trying to say that the Pens will be better than the Coyotes? No.  Stop taking things out of context and stop trying to imply that Joe thinks the pens are the best team on earth, ever. s

Posted by Kevin on 07/05/08 at 09:39 PM ET

I wasn’t saying that Zetterberg and Datsyuk don’t improve the play of their linemates, just not as much as Crosby and Malkin do, or have the potential to do.

Right. We saw how much Malkin improved both his play and the play of those around him in the Finals. Geez Louise, I’ve never seen so many potential Line of the Day posts in a single day.

Will Cindy & Mindy be better than Hank and Pavel five years from now? Probably not. Ten years from now? Maybe…if they’ve both retired!

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 07/05/08 at 10:44 PM ET

Petr Sykora ... 2.5 Million 63 pts.
Alex Tanguay ... 5.375 Million 58 pts.

Enough Said

Not really.  You’ve taken one year and tossed into a complete vacuum.  How have these players historically played?  This past year, how much power play and penalty kill time did each player get?  Who did Tanguay play with (and against) and who did Sykora play with/against?

I’ll save you the work.  Sykora played a minute more on the power play per game and effectively zero penalty-kill time, compared to Tanguay’s 1:41 per game.  Furthermore, while Tanguay has historically been mediocre on the power play, but ridiculously awesome at even-strength, where most of the game is played.  Tanguay had an off year last year: for the three years previous to this one, he had 79, 78, and 81 points, respectively, and only one of those years was an 80-game season (his average was 1.08 PPG).  Contrast this with Sykora’s 52, 51, and 53 points from 2003-07, or 0.66 PPG (or an average of 27 fewer points per year).  Why did Tanguay have an off year?  Partially because he was playing with less-than-stellar linemates, but mostly because he was placed in more of a checking role, which both deflated his stats and made him personally unhappy, ultimately leading to a trade demand.

Think and do a little research before you spout off like an arrogant ass next time.

Posted by Doogie2K from Calgary on 07/05/08 at 10:49 PM ET

Oh, I missed something: shooting percentage.  Tanguay traditionally has an absurdly high shooting percentage—over 20%.  It dropped to 15% this year.  Players tend to recover well from year-to-year dips (and rises) in shooting percentage, so I expect he will shoot better next year.  Sykora’s was its highest since his career year in 2001.  He normally shoots 10-11%, he shot 14% last year, so that’s likely to fall back.

Neither of those are guarantees, obviously, due to the [Stuff] Happens principles that govern hockey, but it’s something else to consider when asking why the heck Tanguay made double Sykora’s salary despite similar point production last year.

Posted by Doogie2K from Calgary on 07/05/08 at 11:02 PM ET

@ Olderthanchelios:
Obviously Malkin didn’t have his best game for the finals. I can’t make any excuses for that, if for no other reason than that he himself refused to use illness or injury as a crutch, which I think is pretty respectable for a 21 year old that failed to do what he was “supposed” to and carry his team to a championship.

I’m not going to say that Crosby and Malkin are better players than Zetterberg and Datsyuk right now (side note: the cindy crosby joke is getting really old.) Obviously Zetterberg and Datsyuk are, at the moment, more complete and more experienced players. To compare them on the basis of talent, however, isn’t even close. Seriously, name one NHL GM not named Holland that would take Zetterberg and Datsyuk over Crosby and Malkin as the two offensive players to build a franchise around, finances aside. Zetterberg and Datsyuk will probably both be remembered as great players after they’ve retired. Crosby and Malkin (along with Ovechkin) have the chance to be remembered as legends. Those three are in a completely different class than anyone else in the league.

Posted by bryan on 07/06/08 at 02:20 AM ET

It’s a little early to be annointing anyone legendary status, I think - eapecially if Tavares winds up overshadowing them both, which he just might if you put any credence in the MSM buzz.

And the Cindy Crosby thing is partially because several announcers themselves stumble all over his first name and sometimes call him Cindy.  It’s also out of frustration at the league marketing him to the exclusion of everyone else.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/06/08 at 06:12 AM ET

That marketing has proven effective, not only for casual hockey acquaintances nationwide, but also for the Penguin sycophants ready to bequeath legend status on Crosby (good chance) and Malkin (will go down in the annals as a very good player), and who are already deeming Fleury an “elite” goaltender on the basis of his high draft status and one good (that’s good, not great) year. Nothing is harder to project in hockey than the trajectory of a young goaltenders career.
Certainly proves that money spent on advertising isn’t wasted.

Posted by BobS. on 07/06/08 at 07:48 AM ET

Nathan, I was going to point out every spelling, grammatical or syntax error that you made in your post as proof that you don’t know what you’re talking about, but then I realized that typos have nothing to do with the ability to prove a point, and pointing them out in online forums is just asinine.

If this is an asinine thing to do, then why are you bringing it up? I guess I should stop it here and not take the petty argument any further.

But you have to think that the Pens got better, if for no other reason than that Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Whitney, Letang and Fleury will all be one year older, one year closer to their primes as athletes and one run to the Stanley Cup Finals more experienced.

You would think so, but you still lost Malone and Roberts. For purposes of this season, you lost Hossa, which in turn meant that you gave away Armstrong, Christensen, and Esposito for nothing (again, in terms of this season).

Like I said, you guys have convinced me that it was a worthwhile trade by Shero, but in hindsight, I think it makes the Pens a weaker team going into the upcoming season that they would’ve been otherwise.

The Pens D is not mediocre… it’s not the Wings’ D, but it does include Gonchar, who actually played quite well in his own end this season and should have been a Norris finalist by the counts of many experts, Whitney, who is still very young and still developing, and may have really come into his own in the Finals, Orpik, who proved that he’s an excellent skater, defensively responsible and a huge hitter, and Scuderi, who is quietly solid. It’s a good D, not mediocre.

Agree completely. Some said that their D was mediocre, I did not. I think I said that it was a bit above average. I would rank their D in the second tier of teams, behind the premier defenses in Detroit, San Jose, Dallas, Anaheim, and Nashville.

Those guys absolutely and significantly raise the play of every other player around them, and that is what makes them better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

I won’t rag on you too much for thinking Z and Datsyuk don’t make their teammates better, simply because I’m guessing you didn’t watch 100+ Red Wings games this past season. They absolutely do. But, the truth is that Datsyuk and Zetterberg make each other better, so the benefits aren’t as obvious.

Most certainly, Crosby is the offensive force in the game that is able to elevate his linemates most. Datsyuk and Zetterberg certainly improve the offense of the guys they play with, but what they really do to improve their teammates comes with their defense. When your top two forwards are Selke-level defenders, it gives a lot of offensive freedom to the guys that get to skate with them.

As for Malkin, I think he’ll be just fine, but I’m kind of surprised that more Pens fans aren’t worried about the whole “I’m tired” whiney bitch crap he pulled in the playoffs. It’s probably just because he’s a kid, and I would guess he’ll grow up and get over it, but it’s still kind of worrisome that he said those things.

In the end, I give Crosby and Malkin the ever-slight advantage as an offensive duo, but Detroit’s offense fills out with so much more depth and quality than Pittsburgh’s, especially with Malone, Roberts, and Hossa (or Armstrong and Christensen) gone.

Detroit can’t say the same about their big guns.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk don’t have as much more potential to fill as the Malkin and Crosby, but they are two players that are in the middle of their prime. I don’t think there is any doubt that in 15 years we will definitely look back at Crosby as the most dominant force of the four players in question. And I would certainly lean toward Malkin being number two on that list, but I really need to see him come out next season and bring it, especially in the playoffs.

There’s no reason to believe that their maturation shouldn’t continue at an exponential rate, as their still only 20 and 21, and that will make the Penguins a significantly better team next year…

There’s no reason to believe it will, either. For all we know, both players have already peaked. Honestly, I actually agree. I think they will improve. But I don’t think they will improve massively on the scoreboard—I think they will improve their two-way games. They will have to—the game demands it these days.

As for Fleury, after the way he’s played ever since his November of last year and throughout the playoffs, he deserves to be presumed an elite level goalie unless he proves otherwise with his play in the coming season.

I said in another post that I felt that both MAF and Carey Price are slated to be in a group with Henrik Lundqvist as the next generation of elite NHL goalies, as the previous era finally comes to an end with Brodeur’s career winding down. Including the West, Luongo is obviously in there as well.

As for the West, the Penguins are as good as Anaheim, Dallas and San Jose.

I think they are as good as Anaheim and Dallas. They are far better up front than either of those teams, about equal in goal, and not quite as good defensively.

San Jose I can’t even judge right now, that club has changed so much. They seem dead set on changing their entire top six on D, so we’ll see what they’re like, but for consistency’s sake, I would favor the Pens over the Sharks as of today.

Posted by Nathan on 07/06/08 at 08:53 AM ET

The fact is that the Penguins mortgaged their future to “win right now” and it didn’t work out.  Hello, Mario, it’s your Uncle Bingo.  Time to pay the check!

Maybe they can replace the talent they’ve lost in short order, maybe not.  If not the sledding will only get tougher.

As for Osgood, I can only wonder how many wins (15th all time) and rings (3) he needs to get his due.

Posted by monkey from here to Timbuktu on 07/06/08 at 08:55 AM ET

Here’s another factor -

This will be the Penguins’ first season as defending Eastern Conference Champions.  They will have a little different kind of target on their back than the one they already have because of the Golden Boy.  Often young teams have a hard time adjusting to getting an opponent’s best game every single night and not being able to surprise anyone.  It will be interesting to see how Pittsburgh deals with it after their short summer.  Even if they are a better team, they may still have a worse record.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/06/08 at 09:12 AM ET

Nathan, I say the Penguins defense is mediocre, you say it’s “a bit” better than average (another word for mediocre)- okay, I’ll give you that “bit”.
bryan, despite the opinion of “many experts”, I think Sergei Gonchar has been among the most over-rated of the bigger name defensemen for a long time, as attested to by your touting the fact he “played quite well in his own end this season”, the (correct) implication being that you can’t always count on him to. Not the greatest recommendation for a defenseman.
Malkin and (especially) Crosby are both very good young players. In the case of Malkin, I don’t see the hockey IQ that will make him nonpareil- there were times in the finals he looked like he was playing checkers when everyone else was playing chess. They’re both going to have to get a little more career behind them before they’re legends anywhere except in the minds of Penguins fans and NHL merchandising geniuses. There was another guy in Philadelphia a few years ago on the fast track to legend who had his career derailed somewhat short. S**t happens.
I’m not wading into the who-makes-who better debate. I will toss in fresh meat, however, by saying that of the three young “phenoms” in the East, if I only had money for one ticket, I’d pay to see Ovechkin before Crosby&Malkin;.

Posted by BobS. on 07/06/08 at 11:23 AM ET

If you were smart you’d pay to see Ovechkin play against Crosby/Malkin.

Posted by Justin from PA on 07/06/08 at 11:36 AM ET

How is Sergei Gonchar overated…

Gonchar was only a couple points behind the best defensemen in the league(Nicklas Lidstrom). Gonchar led with points on the pp.

He is also very good in his own end. You would know if you watched enough of the Pens.

Gonchar is an all-star.

Paying to see Ovechkin and a terrible team in the Capitals is pointless compared to paying to see two superstars in Crosby and Malkin and an actual cup contender team in the Penguins.

Posted by JJ from PA on 07/06/08 at 11:55 AM ET

He’s one dimensional, that’s how he’s overrated. He’s terrific offensively, but merely competent in his own end. Comparing his point production to Lidstrom, you’re certainly on solid ground- it’s where Gonchar has gained his “all-star” standing. Comparing his overall game to Lidstrom, who would be an all-star even if he never crossed the blue line, is foolish. That’s why Lidstrom has the Norris. Again. And it’s why someone thinks it’s noteworthy that Gonchar “played quite well in his own end this season”. Actually, he’s the perfect defenseman for 18-11 All-Star games.
JJ, I didn’t write anything about watching the Capitals or Penguins- just Ovechkin or Malkin&Crosby;.
That would be fine, Justin. However, if I’m there to see one of the three live up to his press clippings and provide me with a jaw-dropping example of athleticism and hockey skill, I’m there to see Ovechkin. He makes plays that are “legendary”.

Posted by BobS. on 07/06/08 at 04:32 PM ET

I think Sergei Gonchar has been among the most over-rated of the bigger name defensemen for a long time

Gonchar’s not Lidstrom, but he’s not over-rated either.

Doogie,

As far as Tanguay being overpaid: if he can’t manage more than 22 goals (you’ll note I’m ignoring his “off” year) with all the space playing with Jarome Iginla buys him, he’s just not a five million dollar player. Both Conroy and Langkow have exceeded Tanguay’s goal production with Calgary—and Conroy did it in the clutch and grab NHL. I understand that Langkow makes five million now, but, in addition to being more productive than Tanguay, he also kills penalties, wins faceoffs, and plays a far more physical game.

If Tanguay makes more money than a more-productive teammate (Langkow) just signed for—and that more-productive teammate also possesses intangibles that Tanguay doesn’t—I don’t understand how it could be said that Tanguay’s not overpaid (Detroit fans will approve when I note Langkow’s superior plus-minus during Tanguay’s and Langkow’s shared Calgary tenure).

In Montreal, Tanguay will be the highest-paid forward (unless Sundin signs). Does anyone really think he can be the Canadians’ go-to guy? I sure as heck don’t.

Unlike Tanguay, teams key on Kovalev the same way they key on your Crosbys and Ovechkins. Kovalev produces anyway (minus an off-year or two).

Tanguay’s just not the kind of player who can do that, even if he’s paid like one.

Posted by Steve on 07/06/08 at 04:44 PM ET

Comparing his overall game to Lidstrom, who would be an all-star even if he never crossed the blue line, is foolish. That’s why Lidstrom has the Norris.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say Gonchar should win a Norris over Lidstrom. If Lidstrom’s the standard by which every other defenseman’s ability is judged, then nothing positive can ever be said about anyone else.

If the puck touches Gonchar’s stick in the defensive end, it’s out of the zone on a tape-to-tape pass. I think he’s made something like two bad turnovers in the last two years. That qualifies him as more than “competent in his own end” in my book.

He makes plays that are “legendary”.

Wanting to watch Ovechkin over Crosby or Malkin or Iginla (or whomever) is certainly defensible, but not for the reason you just cited. I lived in Washington for two years and saw a lot of him during that time. Ovechkin doesn’t make plays. Green and Backstrom do. Ovechkin’s thing is blowing a long-range wrist shot past the goalie when no scoring chance appears to be present and the goaltender and defense are all in proper position. His strength is that he can bypass the play-making process altogether. Good as he is at what he does, take a closer look at Ovechkin next year. He can’t even make a backhand pass. At all. On the rare occasion that he tries, he usually misses the intended receiver by fifty feet, turning the puck over in the process. He also has a bad habit of missing his shots wide and, since his shots are so figgin hard, thereby starting a rush for the other team. Don’t even get me started on his cherry-picking. If I had been an invested Caps fan and not a displaced Pens fan, I would have found him equal parts fascinating and infuriating.

Posted by Steve on 07/06/08 at 05:11 PM ET

by this time next year folks will rip two moves made during first days of free agent frenzy: Pens letting Ruutu go in favor of Cooke (they’ll spend half the season sticking up for Cooke’s cheap shots; at least Ruutu defends himself rather than ducking and covering) and Dallas allowing Niklas Hagman to go and bringing in Sean Avery…best team in the East, I’m afraid the Pens will not be; that distinction will belong to either the Rangers, the Flyers, or possibly even…nah, we all know it’s going to be the Rangers

Posted by Percy Weaver from New York on 07/06/08 at 06:08 PM ET

Nathan, the Pens might very well be as good as the Stars and Ducks next season - a marginal playoff team, mind you, Conklin held the fort most of last season; Fleury is slated to become the next Youppi

Posted by Percy Weaver from New York on 07/06/08 at 06:12 PM ET

I agree that Gonchar doesn’t have everything in his game that Lidstrom does, that’s why Lidstrom won the norris. I think from watching the pens the last couple years that Gonchar has been their best defender by far,and one of the best in the league. He makes a lot of great plays in his own end too. He might make a couple of mistakes here and there, but everyone does. I agree with Steve, when Gonchar gets the puck in his own end it is almost always a great tape-to-tape pass out of the zone.

I don’t watch the Capitals very often, but when i do i’m not that impressed with Ovechkin. He has a great amount of skill when it comes to scoring. He hangs back though and waits for the pass from Green or Backstrom. Sure he makes some good plays but i wouldn’t call them “legendary”. Crosby has made absolutely amazing plays, some you may even be able to call “legendary”. Ovechkin has the skill to put pucks in the net, but Crosby is the kind of player who will always make a perfect pass off to someone else to get the goal. Don’t get me wrong, Crosby can finish too. Crosby also is excellent is his own end, and is a great backchecker. Malkin has a great scoring ability like Ovechkin, but Malkin can also make the great pass unlike Ovechkin.

Posted by JJ from PA on 07/06/08 at 07:32 PM ET

Holy crap people are dumb. How did the pens mortgage their future to win right now? The lost Eric Christenson and Colby frickin Armstrong.  IF they play with sidney crosby, they are 20 goal scorers at best. Colby is good defensively and EC is good at the shootout. Esposito is a waste of life, and will NEVER play on any cup worthy team, ever, ever, ever. And the first round pick would have just brought one more person into the AHL that will be exactly like the other 20.  Not to mention people continue to forget that the penguins also got Pascal Dupuis out of the trade, who they resigned, and he is basically exactly like Colby, except he doesn’t have a huge nose that draws countless high sticking penalties, which is actually a very underrated quality.

So what is the Pens future? Oh I don’t know, maybe sidney crosby, geno, staal, fleury, whitney, letang, goligoski, minard, james, caputi, moon, and all the other ahl guys that were so terrible this year that all they did was go to the calder cup finals, well they must just plain suck, only idiots don’t win every season.

Future sounds pretty good to me.

Posted by Kevin on 07/07/08 at 01:57 PM ET