... because it’s always about blogger’s rights…

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/18/08 at 09:21 AM ET

No, it’s not always about bloggers rights. But it is funny that on one hand, bloggers are all lumped together and decried by many an institution, while on the other hand, they take their staff and ask them (require them?) to write blogs, to participate in this supposedly seedy underworld.

Posted by SENShobo from Waterloo, ON on 11/18/08 at 09:26 AM ET

HockeyinHD, you should really do a blog on this topic in the KK Member Blog section.  I am sure many bloggers would be interested in your views on this topic.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 11/18/08 at 09:28 AM ET

The Wings need to put some fans in the seats at the Joe. It’s an embarrassment to see all those empty seats in the lower bowl. How come they can’t figure this problem out?

Posted by Eric on 11/18/08 at 09:48 AM ET

HockeyinHD, you should really do a blog on this topic in the KK Member Blog section.  I am sure many bloggers would be interested in your views on this topic.

This is an honest question- I say this, because I acknowledge that this could be misinterpretted as snark.

Who is this site for?  The blogger, or the fan?  It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive, of course, but there is plenty that the fan doesn’t care to read about.  Blogger’s rights and a near daily kvetching because this or that team is being insensitive toward them, definitely fall into a grey area.

As a hockey fan, I appreciate bloggers.  You guys provide a lot of entertainment and more than a little news.  But as a hockey fan, I’m not entirely certain I give a damn about bloggers rights- not to the point where I want to read about it day in, day out.

Posted by shanetx on 11/18/08 at 10:23 AM ET

Paul, The whole blogger thing is a league-wide problem, not necessarily a team problem. There are very few teams that even so much as acknowledge bloggers, and that’s a damn shame. Atlanta has been very slowly warming up to bloggers, but they’ve done very little to bridge the gap… despite Atlanta being an off-market team and in the midst of a fan rebellion (rising ticket prices despite dismal record last season, a season ticket holder base disenchanted, GM Waddell still having a job, etc).

Eric, I think the underlying problem in Detroit is in the national spotlight right now. Continuing to harp on the fact that the Wings aren’t putting butts into seats without acknowledging the economic situation in the city of Detroit, and state of Michigan as a whole, is very disingenuous. Then again, I’m from there, so maybe everyone else in the country is blind to the problems except for us natives?

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 11/18/08 at 10:41 AM ET

The thing I don’t understand is...the Pistons sell out. The Wings don’t alot of the time. If the economy suxs they should both be hurting. I figure the problem is going into Detroit to get to the Joe...I would certainly avoid the inner city if I could help it. That’s my theory...though I have no clue. What’s the deal?

Posted by kevin from boston on 11/18/08 at 10:46 AM ET

Alan,

I’m a Detroit native too (for better or worse) and I’m not completely sold on the economy argument. For one thing, the Detroit Tigers just had their best season ever at the turnstiles and I don’t think the economic outlook was really that much rosier at the beginning of the season than it is now. Plus, the empty seats in the lower bowl problem has been noticeable for years now. And although I can’t say with 100% certainty, I believe that often times those seats are sold but the fans are no-shows. Why? I do not know, but you’d think they could get someone in there to figure it out. It’s embarrassing. Would love to continue a dialogue on this. Watching this Wings team is a joy, but the empty seats are killer. The JLA is like a mausoleum. It’s the Cleveland Stadium of the NHL.

Eric in the D

Posted by Eric on 11/18/08 at 10:46 AM ET

When I look at KK, and when I joined, I saw this as a site for all things hockey related. There was a complaint by some when more bloggers joined, feeling themselves unable to distinguish between ‘blogs’ posted by the newcomers and ‘news’ posted by Paul, and yet for years, both IwoCPO and Alanah have been posting their blogs (Abel to Yzerman, Canucks and Beyond) on this site as well.

If you bookmark KK Hockey instead of just KK, you will be treated only to the posts Paul and Alanah deem generally newsworthy, and yet you will find plenty of blogs in there too, today featuring James Duthie’s and Bob McKenzie’s blogs, as well as this very ‘news’ item, which is in fact George James Malik’s SnapShots blog.

What does it matter whether ‘bloggers’ have ‘rights’? Well, you will find that some of the latest breaking news gets reported there first, such as Paul’s posting on Barry Melrose’s firing with a link to the Bolts Report blog. Blogs were also the only source of the Montreal ASG ballot stuffing for days before the League or MSM commented on the issue, where the insane lead still held by the Habs suggests nothing has changed. I even had my humble beginnings picking up on Oleg Saprykin’s departure from the Sens for Russia, something North American MSM and the team did not pick up on for many days and weeks, respectively, despite readily available sourcing to Russian MSM.

Additionally, many of the news items Paul, a blogger himself, is able to post here, especially some of the more breaking news, come directly from access that he has solely because he, as a blogger, has been given some rights, and is able to co-operate with the League and many teams as well. If bloggers were completely disregarded, or bigger sites like KK despised so much, they might not even exist with enough legal pressure, or at the very least they might not be able to bring readers the content they desire and appreciate.

To me, this site is for anyone and everyone who loves hockey. Whether you tune into the KK Hockey section exclusively, poring over the detailed headlines and leads to determine what is worth your time, or if you visit countless times a day, and take in as much as you can from every source available, KK caters to one and all.

Posted by SENShobo from Waterloo, ON on 11/18/08 at 10:55 AM ET

It is somewhat embarrassing, sure. But Detroit is in the midst of a six-plus-year recession. Also remember that a baseball stadium holds significantly more fans than a hockey arena. There are other factors to consider when comparing a baseball team and a hockey team, including how many more fans prefer baseball over hockey. Remember, the lockouts turned off a lot of American fans, and Detroit - despite its proximity to Canada - is no exception.

How are the Pistons drawing? While I don’t pay much attention to basketball, I do know that here in Atlanta, both the Hawks and Thrashers play in Philips Arena, and have only about a 200 seat difference between the hockey setup and the basketball setup. There’s a difference in attendance, and I’m sure you can guess which team is on the short end based on my first post.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 11/18/08 at 11:02 AM ET

I’m not trying to diminish the importance of the ephemeral “bloggers rights"- I’m well aware of the benefits to bloggers being considered a news source on equal footing with MSM.  I get more worthwhile hockey information from this site than any other and I love all of you bloggers who post here (even those who are blatant homers for their team!). 

And you know what?  I think the above statement likely would apply to anyone who comes here for news.  I think it’s preaching to the choir, so to speak, to keep harping on it.  If anyone HERE needed to be persuaded then a once-a-month dissertation with factual evidence supporting bloggers would probably be immeasurably more valuable than two-bit comments sneaking their way into a dozen “news” stories, you see where I’m going here?  I like my hockey and I like my bloggers to have rights!  But I don’t necessarily like my bloggers rights to worm their way into everything I read about my hockey.  Dig?

To sum it all up:  I just get tired of reading about blogger rights nonstop.  That’s all I’m sayin’- and, if y’all can rant about those rights daily, then I can bitch about reading those rants once a month.

Posted by shanetx on 11/18/08 at 11:29 AM ET

Bloggers just want an occasional nod to head to the press box and pursue stories that are off the beaten path, like talking to a player who made a really smart but unnoticed defensive play after the game, attempts to capture the atmosphere of a game-day skate, and doing stuff that compliments what beat writers already do very well. 

To me, bloggers right are about adding a person who really wants Team A to win into the accredited mix to get a fan’s perspective, as a sort of intermediary between the MSM and the average fan, and to make sure that the interactive nature between bloggers and readers give fans a voice by whichquestions/concerns (like asking Nicklas Lidstrom, “How do the Wings work on getting their sticks and bodies into passing lanes without dropping to block shots?” or “What role does the Red Wings For’Em club play on a day-by-day basis?) can be addressed by the players and coaches themselves.

I just want to compliment the MSM’s work, not compete with it, and to do so from the perspective of a passionate fan.  That’s my goal, and it’s taken three years for the Red Wings to feel me out, but at least there’s a discussion going on now.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 11/18/08 at 11:39 AM ET

Lots of stuff to reply to here. 

No, it’s not always about bloggers rights. But it is funny that on one hand, bloggers are all lumped together and decried by many an institution, while on the other hand, they take their staff and ask them (require them?) to write blogs, to participate in this supposedly seedy underworld.

I think you’re missing the point, SENS.  It’s not that the NHL mistrusts blogging as a means of information-dispersal or fan engagement… it’s that they mistrust the bloggers currently doing the blogging to accomplish that without making a hash of things.  It seems awfully obvious that engaging people via the internet is a growing and incresaingly effective means of connecting with fan bases and keeping their interest.  What isn’t as obvious is whether or not it makes more sense to just turn that over to essentially random people with no relevant oversight (ie, existing bloggers), or whether to just staff blogging out in-house with someone the team can select, compensate, and oversee without the other hassles.

HockeyinHD, you should really do a blog on this topic in the KK Member Blog section.  I am sure many bloggers would be interested in your views on this topic.

I haven’t solidified my opinion on this issue to the point where I feel I could coalesce it into a readable and/or enjoyable structure.  I think before I could write a competent piece on the issue I’d need to be able to say I come down on one side or the other and make a case accordingly.

Assuming for the moment you weren’t snarking me… which would be mean.

As a hockey fan, I appreciate bloggers.  You guys provide a lot of entertainment and more than a little news.  But as a hockey fan, I’m not entirely certain I give a damn about bloggers rights- not to the point where I want to read about it day in, day out.

Shane, I hear you.  There is a certain point at which if something is harped about often enough it begins to be ‘heard’ in the background even if it isn’t being expressly said, like some kind of satanic Muzak.  Married guys ought to be able to feel me on this one.

I get the impression that in the last couple months that the sensitivity level among bloggers concerning percieved slights has gotten so high that the reaction to even tangental things (like, say, a team reaching out to fans via the web and looking for suggestions) leads to some derivative of ‘See!  SEE!?!?!  They hate bloggers!’

I just want to compliment the MSM’s work, not compete with it, and to do so from the perspective of a passionate fan.  That’s my goal, and it’s taken three years for the Red Wings to feel me out, but at least there’s a discussion going on now.

I’ve mentioned this a couple times before, but I think until bloggers and NHL teams come to some kind of understanding regarding oversight and reach an agreement where the teams can be comfortable that they aren’t opening themselves up to get screwed by a blogger they allow access to their team, bloggers should just expect to see closed doors.

Although the ‘Members blogs’ are a nod in this general direction, would Paul really allow someone to continue to use that outlet if they wrote highly critical or inflammatory comments of KK in general, especially if those comments were personal and/or of a questionable factual nature?  I kind of doubt it.  Paul retains final editing rights to what goes up and who posts it… as well he should.

I suppose I just don’t see why NHL teams wanting that same degree of input into an information source they primarily control is such a big surprise.  I mean, there’s probably next to no money at risk or general consequences to be faced if some rogue KK member gets their load on and resurrects some neo-fascist manifesto of hate and spews his message on KK.  A blogger who misues team-granted access can cause a much bigger problem.  Muuuuuuch bigger.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/18/08 at 12:18 PM ET

No snarking on my end HockeyinHD, I respect your opinion and am interested in your views.

I also believe others would be too.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 11/18/08 at 12:20 PM ET

Here is one suggestion- Start acknowledging bloggers instead of not returning emails or treating them like they don’t exist!

Well, Paul, here’s another suggestion for Ms. Paul (no relation, I assume).

They could actually produce up-to-date content for their blog. Until the referenced item (which was posted yesterday) went online, there hadn’t been a post since last Tuesday (the 11th). And the last game they commented on was the Devils game on the 10th, fer cripes sake.

Who’s going to waste their time going to a blog that gets “updated” every five or six days, and only has info on games that are more than a week old. Like most organizations who hire “experts” like Ms. Paul, the Wings are clueless when it comes to connecting with their fans/customers. They seem to think $1 hot dog nights once a year is all they have to do.

As a hockey fan, I appreciate bloggers.  You guys provide a lot of entertainment and more than a little news.  But as a hockey fan, I’m not entirely certain I give a damn about bloggers rights…

I get what you said in your “clarifications”, shanetx, but your basic premise is still a bit bizarre. You “appreciate” what bloggers do, but you don’t want to hear about the problems they encounter in doing those things. To be blunt, it’s a selfish attitude.

Maybe the solution for you is to simply not read all of those annoying articles about how bloggers have to fight for their rights. Just read and enjoy the things they post about hockey itself. Because, after all, it is all about you.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 11/18/08 at 12:35 PM ET

While I get the desire to rush to the defense of bloggers or any ‘oppressed’ group, OTC, I think you’re being more than a little harsh on Shane.

I don’t think the idea of wanting to be able to remain informed about hockey topics while not having to sift through overt and oblique references to ‘blogger rights’ and the consternation that issue causes some is all that unreasonable an expectation… certainly not deserving of the moderately aggressive monikers ‘bizarre’, or ‘selfish’.

I have to wonder if it’s any more ‘selfish’ of bloggers to continue harping on the issue than it is ‘selfish’ for other to not want to be subjected to it?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/18/08 at 01:06 PM ET

If you want to avoid most of the bloggers here (though some, like me, post news), bookmark KK Hockey instead of just KK, as I suggested earlier; we will all be filtered out, and your sifting will be reduced.

Also, the story here was very much not about ‘blogger rights’, even if Paul’s addition to his post could direct you to think so. The story was valuable to Wings fans and many others without making ‘blogger rights’ a focal point of the issue. It was also you who first opened the can of worms here in the comments

Maybe avoid the comment sections? Or, by choosing not to, you almost implicitly accept that you want commentary and opinions, the meat and potatoes of blogging. By bringing up that term, it was you who started the argument in fact, whether you view it started because you were the first to use the word or comment, or because Paul’s post is merely a suggestion, not made an argument until you provided the counterpoint

Posted by SENShobo from Waterloo, ON on 11/18/08 at 01:46 PM ET

What isn’t as obvious is whether or not it makes more sense to just turn that over to essentially random people with no relevant oversight (ie, existing bloggers), or whether to just staff blogging out in-house with someone the team can select, compensate, and oversee without the other hassles.

Right, HD, it’s the difference between “reportage” and propoganda. Fans are smart enough these days to know the difference. And if all a team want to do is put up occassional puff pieces, like Ms Paul has done so far, then they’ll get their information elsewhere...even if that information is somewhat limited because of the way that team shuts out bloggers.

Look, I’m not saying an organization should grant access to anyone who simply puts up a blog. But they should be granting access to those who’ve proven they have a reasonable understanding of the “rules of the game” when it comes to reportage. And it’s very easy to figure out who those bloggers are by simply reading their blogs.

I think you’re being more than a little harsh on Shane.

It’s nothing personal against Shane, but he set himself up for criticism by stating he wants the info bloggers provide but isn’t interested in what they have to go through to get that info. I don’t think it’s mean-spirited to describe that attitude as being selfish.

I would think that the bottom line for you, Shane and anyone else who isn’t interested in the plight of the bloggers is to simply ignore any posts in which they talk about their plight. Read the info that you enjoy and skip the rest. Complaining that bloggers are somehow interferring with your enjoyment of hockey by talking about issues important to them (and to some of us as well) is rather silly.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 11/18/08 at 02:04 PM ET

Paul,

Thank you for picking up on our recent blog post and for giving us the insight into your concern. I just want to reassure you and your readers that we are definitely listening to the discussion on your site and appreciate the valuable feedback that this kind of discourse provides.

As you know, our new blog was quietly launched a few weeks prior as a means of aggregating our activity on several social networks and to provide a place where we could begin a genuine dialogue with fans. Please know that it is not yet what we plan for it to be, but rather, the very beginning of a work in progress.

I would also like to apologize for any negative experiences you have had in communicating with the Red Wings organization in the past, and for any emails or messages that have gone unanswered. Here is my direct contact information should you need to discuss anything in the future: I can be reached at shannon.paul[at]hockeytown[dot]com or on my direct line at (313) 396-7584.

Thanks again for the discussion and I look forward to hearing from you!

Shannon Paul
New Media Creative Content Coordinator
Detroit Red WIngs

Posted by Shannon Paul from Detroit, Michigan on 11/18/08 at 03:49 PM ET

Warning:  I tried to post this reply a bit ago and I haven’t seen it go through.  I’m not sure if there is a delay, or if I messed up somehow with the preview function, so I’m going to try to post it again.  I apologize, in advance, for the double-post if indeed it does show up twice.

I get what you said in your “clarifications”, shanetx, but your basic premise is still a bit bizarre. You “appreciate” what bloggers do, but you don’t want to hear about the problems they encounter in doing those things. To be blunt, it’s a selfish attitude.

Maybe the solution for you is to simply not read all of those annoying articles about how bloggers have to fight for their rights. Just read and enjoy the things they post about hockey itself. Because, after all, it is all about you.

... Uh, what?

I can listen to Led Zeppelin, and appreciate what they do, without dwelling on the car wreck that changed Plant’s life, or the illness that Page battled through to even have a career as a touring musician.  I can go see The Watchmen next month blissfully unaware of the contract struggles between the studio releasing the movie and the last one to own the rights to the intellectual property.  I’m sure you can do both as well.  Is it selfish to want to separate the product of an entertainment medium from the obstacles to it’s presentation?  That’s ludicrous, OTC.

I’m not opposed to reading about what sort of uphill battles bloggers are facing- I’ve really enjoyed some of the comments as followups to my original bitching.  In particular, Malik’s clarification of what he views as the ideal role of a blogger was really interesting.  All I’m saying is I’d prefer the two to be separate rather than have what appears to be hockey news intertwined with cries for blogger rights consistently.  I said in one of my attempts at clarification:

If anyone HERE needed to be persuaded then a once-a-month dissertation with factual evidence supporting bloggers would probably be immeasurably more valuable than two-bit comments sneaking their way into a dozen “news” stories, you see where I’m going here?  I like my hockey and I like my bloggers to have rights!  But I don’t necessarily like my bloggers rights to worm their way into everything I read about my hockey.  Dig?

So, I’ll take that a step further.  There are some very talented writers on this site.  If one of them wrote an article about the state of blogging and the lack of respect given to bloggers… I’d read that in a heartbeat, just like I eat up stories about the struggles a band/movie/hockey team goes through to produce the entertaining product they produce.  I just prefer them not to interfere (though Jackson Browne’s “the load out” and Seger’s “turn the page” walk the line just fine, thank you!).  What’s more, if I wasn’t already on their side in this I’d probably be swayed by something of that sort- again, I give the group of writers assembled here a lot of credit.

Finally- As Senshobo said, “so, the story here was very much not about ‘blogger rights”.  But I’d counter that the rest of his sentence “even if Paul’s addition to his post could direct you to think so” with my own, “even if Paul’s addition to his post made it so.” And that’s, really, what I’m complaining about.  You can feel free to ignore me just as easily as I can avoid reading certain bloggers (which has been advised 3-4 times in these comments). 

The fact is- I never wanted to avoid blogs, or comments.  I enjoy both.  But I saw something that irritated me in a very minor, shrug-it-off fashion so I popped off.

Posted by shanetx on 11/18/08 at 03:59 PM ET

Is it selfish to want to separate the product of an entertainment medium from the obstacles to it’s presentation?

That might be the case if you paid for what you get here and at other blogs...and it might apply if everyone felt exactly as you do. But this is all free, Shane. What you were complaining about is like going to someone’s house, eating their food and drinking their beer (for free), and then complaining that they talk to much about their personal problems.

I keep going back to one basic solution for you. Just simply don’t read the portions of blogs that bother you. Expecting them to stop talking on their own blogs about issues that are important to them is, indeed, selfish.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 11/18/08 at 04:09 PM ET

“Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth” sounds like an appropriate summation of one side, but while I speak for myself I would be surprised to find myself alone in saying that I appreciate praise, can take and attempt to understand criticisms, and like the whole world, my blog is a creature that has and will continue to evolve.

If one of them wrote an article about the state of blogging and the lack of respect given to bloggers… I’d read that in a heartbeat

Interesting you should say that, as I was in the process of doing so at one point, before the Covered In Oil controversy erupted and I changed course with my focus on the topic. You can find a wide-ranging state of the blogosphere at Technocrati every year, though it is more a statistical survey than what we have been discussing, and maybe in time you will find a full-fledged hockey blogger one here.

Posted by SENShobo from Waterloo, ON on 11/18/08 at 05:28 PM ET

I understand your point in regards to this being a free medium but I don’t think my lack of financial investment makes my opinion any more or less valid- no one who reads here pays anything, to the best of my knowledge.  In fact, I’d assume that the site is paid for by advertising which means that I’m probably contributing as much to it’s upkeep as anyone if not more!  I hit refresh a lot! :p

Whether it’s selfish of me to voice an opinion or not- you’re pretty obviously of the opinion that it is.  I don’t quite agree, but I think we’re at the point where it’s pretty irrelevant.

Obviously, even with the comments I find objectionable, I consider this site extremely worthwhile- Paul has done an excellent job, and put together a quality stable of writers.  I don’t want to diminish that fact.  Somehow, I think a small annoyance I expressed has been seen as a much larger spot of contention- which is sad, because I certainly did not mean my view to disparage the site or it’s writers in any way, if that’s how it’s been taken.  I’d say my sentiments more closely resemble those expressed by HockeyinHD who said it better than I did.

Posted by shanetx on 11/18/08 at 05:33 PM ET

Well, the tough part of not liking anything blogger-related on a blog site is akin to being peeved when the Red Wings post “stories” on their website that advertise tickets.  It’s the nature of the beast, that’s all.  I don’t have any problem with people who don’t like to read about “bloggers’ rights” and that sort of stuff, but it’s a big issue to them.

We try not to take it personally and hope you understand that we’re just trying to make our voices heard, not shove anything down anybody’s throat.  If that feels like it’s the case, it’s not intentional.  If anything, I actually enjoy the fact that my readers can very publicly disagree with me via the comments section below my posts, so we can talk about our differences of opinion and create a discussion as opposed to a one-way conversation between author and reader.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 11/18/08 at 05:47 PM ET

Oooh.  More to reply to!

Right, HD, it’s the difference between “reportage” and propoganda. Fans are smart enough these days to know the difference.

I wonder if that will change once (if) bloggers gain access and become at least perceptually beholden to the team to ‘behave’ in order to maintain that access?  Perhaps blogging as a interest driver is something that works better as a counter-culture tool, or an ‘outsider’, rather than as a mainstream tool.  I’ll have to ponder that issue and develop a more detailed and comprehensive opinion.

Look, I’m not saying an organization should grant access to anyone who simply puts up a blog. But they should be granting access to those who’ve proven they have a reasonable understanding of the “rules of the game” when it comes to reportage. And it’s very easy to figure out who those bloggers are by simply reading their blogs.

So… how many bloggers do you think the Wings should allow in every game, exactly?  If I start a blog tomorrow and write cogent pieces, even though very few people read it should I get a media pass?  How often should bloggers worthy of media access post?  Every day?  Twice a week?  Monthly?

Heck, why limit it to only ‘bloggers’?  Why not include people who don’t blog per se, but who are long-time hockey forum contributors?  Is there some clear delineation between opinions expressed over the Net on a blog versus a reply over the Net to a topic posting?  Be careful how you answer that one, bloggers… lest the shoe be on the other foot.

Seriously, how many people who write Wings blogs in the Detroit area are ‘worthy’ of being in the media room, in your own personal estimation?  How many bloggers should be in the room every game?  Should they all get lockerroom access or should they be able to just attend the pool interviews at the end?

I keep going back to one basic solution for you. Just simply don’t read the portions of blogs that bother you. Expecting them to stop talking on their own blogs about issues that are important to them is, indeed, selfish.

So isn’t your complaining about us complaining just as selfish as our complaining was?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/18/08 at 07:34 PM ET

I believe that criteria need to be established to define a blogger as “worthy” of a press pass, including not only professional conduct, but also a certain amount of time put in and a level of accountability and readership that...Well, the Wings are trying to determine right now.  They have every right to be selective, and to make sure that they’re not bringing somebody into the locker room who will ask a player for his autograph instead of asking him a question.  We’re all learning here, both bloggers and teams.

Personally speaking, I feel that it’s absolutely and positively necessary to never write as if I am beholden to the team that offers me access.  I thank them for the opportunity, but also make sure that I write about what I see and what I think is going on, regardless of whether my opinion would be popular or unpopular with the team.  I’d try to avoid the politicking and just talk about hockey, and when the Wings did give me access, that’s what I did.

I can’t answer the question about forum posters because I don’t have a good answer, and know that there are people who have never kept a blog whose dedication to covering the sport and providing information to their fellow fans on message boards and forums outstrips my own, and I know because that’s how I got my start., as a forum poster.  Time will tell as to whether forum posters will receive the same recognition from teams, but I’m not about to disparage them, because I think that there are people who operate with journalistic-quality professionalism and write absolutely spectacular posts. 

I actually have a problem with the concept of an “elite” who are simply entitled to anything, regardless as to which medium they use to discuss hockey with others--you earn your reputation, you earn your audience, and you earn your place as a trusted source of accurate information and intelligent commentary.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 11/18/08 at 08:04 PM ET

But that’s kind of my point, George… it’s a moving target.  A moving invisible target.

I think bloggers just haven’t really sat down and thought about this from the perspective of the NHL team they so badly want access to.  Seriously, should an NHL team really have to assign someone(s) to spend God knows how many hours, days or weeks reading archived posts of 5, 10, 15, 50, 500 bloggers who apply for access and then trying to devise some kind of standard of acceptance which determines who is ‘in’ and who is ‘out’?

Is there some way to tell which bloggers have been posting long enough?  What’s the cutoff… 1 month?  6 months?  1 year?  Longer?  Does posting for 9 months mean a blogger is more deserving than a blogger who posts equivalent quality but who has only done so for 6 months?

What should an NHL team think is an acceptible level of quality from a blogger?  If a team is mediocre to bad should they want to bring in a guy whose work slants negative, even if it’s an accurate representation of the team?

Do we need a Blogger BCS formula?

Then the arguments and whining will kick in from the bloggers who didn’t ‘make the grade’.  Then comes the ever-present internet vitriol directed at the team who snubbed them.  Or the blogger who got in.  Then we get the ‘sellout’ namecalling going.

Agh.  The whole thing just screams out ‘gigantic pain in the ass’ to me, when at the end of the day what really’s going to improve?

I mean it… what’s the upside for bloggers?  Use yourself as an example, George… if you got the access that any other member of the MSM gets, what would get better about your blog?  Is there really that much information that’s left uncovered between what the MSM gets and what gets out there now?  Even if there is all this hidden info… what makes you think having equivalent access to the MSM would make you any more likely to get at those nuggets than they are?

I don’t know.  This whole access issue sounds more like an ‘I’m Special’ pin bloggers could stick on their sweater-vests rather than something which would substantively improve the entertainment value of blogs.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/18/08 at 09:15 PM ET

So isn’t your complaining about us complaining just as selfish as our complaining was?

Great response, HD. When you know you have no firm ground to stand on, put up a nonsensical statement and see if that flys. Boring!

Let’s boil this argument down to its very essence. If you don’t like what certain bloggers talk about, go someplace where you won’t be bothered by their comments. The Red Wings are trying to provide a “non-blogger” blog, and there’s always the MSM sites provided by the Detroit News and Free Press.

Read those. Enjoy the no-complaints-about-blogger-rights stories you read there. But have the common courtesy to respect the rights of the bloggers whose sites you visit to express their personal opinions about the restrictions they face in trying to bring you the most unbiased news possible.

Seriously, I just don’t get this whole “you’re talking about things I don’t want to hear” nonsense. If you really don’t want to hear it, don’t read it! It’s just as simple as that.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids on 11/18/08 at 11:16 PM ET

I mean it… what’s the upside for bloggers?  Use yourself as an example, George… if you got the access that any other member of the MSM gets, what would get better about your blog?  Is there really that much information that’s left uncovered between what the MSM gets and what gets out there now?  Even if there is all this hidden info… what makes you think having equivalent access to the MSM would make you any more likely to get at those nuggets than they are?

The upside is that we become more than clearinghouses for information.  I did a helluva job during the Wings’ summer prospect camp by writing things very differently from the media that attended sessions, and people appreciated the different perspective.  It’s not better or worse, just different, and I believe that more perspectives are better than less perspectives.

There are some of us who don’t want to be special--we just want to show teams what we can do, and if the grand experiment works, great, if not, okay, but I would sure like to try it out.  To me, that’s the thing here--we don’t need a pat on the back or some sort of special, exalted status over the average fan, because, hell, that’s all I am.  I just happen to have the opportunity to write for a blog.  I would like to earn the occasional seat and see what I could do, and hope that whatever I added would accentuate the coverage that’s already out there, regardless of the tone thereof...and that’s all.

I don’t have all the answers to these issues and arguments, and I think nobody does, which is the whole point. 

But why not give it a try?  That’s all I’m saying, and that’s all I’ve proffered to the Wings for a few years now.  No puffed-up chest, no “I’m Super Smart cape” (thank you, Sifl n Olly), just, “Why not give it a try?”

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 11/19/08 at 12:34 AM ET

Let’s boil this argument down to its very essence. If you don’t like what certain bloggers talk about, go someplace where you won’t be bothered by their comments. The Red Wings are trying to provide a “non-blogger” blog, and there’s always the MSM sites provided by the Detroit News and Free Press.

Interesting.  So, if bloggers don’t like something… why do they blog?  Why don’t they just stop watching whatever subject they’re blogging about?

Seems reasonable and consistent with your advice, right?  Or is criticism something bloggers can do but not be subject to?  Or are they the only ones ‘qualified’ to criticize?

Hmm.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/19/08 at 09:31 AM ET

But why not give it a try?  That’s all I’m saying, and that’s all I’ve proffered to the Wings for a few years now.

There is something I’ve learned in my professional life:  It is much safer and better long-term business to not open a door than it is to clean up the mess if you open the wrong one.

The best case scenario is that the team manages to get one or two dependable bloggers and anger another dozen or more who want in but don’t deserve it.  And anger their other media sources, most likely.  There may be some positive impact on their franchise, depending on the degree of current media attention… but that’s far from a definite thing.  Again, maybe I’m being too pessimistic… so, you tell me.  Using yourself as an example what are the benefits the Wings could expect to see from allowing you and/or other bloggers MSM-level access to their club?

On the other hand, the worst case scenario is that a team brings a blogger in who (after angering other media sources and bloggers due to the selection process as in the first case) embarasses the franchise, alienates a player, improperly excoriates a coach, or does any number of other things which require the team to spend time, energy and resources to repair.  If they are even able to.  Then after shooting that guy out the airlock the team has to decide whether to bring another blogger in and go through the whole circus again, or to just re-seal the door on blogger access in general… and then we’re really off to the races with the hue and cry from the blogosphere.

So, that’s why I would suspect teams aren’t exactly going ga-ga over the idea.  ‘Precedent’ in professional organizations isn’t an insigniificant thing, either in setting or ignoring it.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/19/08 at 09:47 AM ET

The Red Wings do happen to know me, and I would most certainly fill in gaps and provide both complimentary coverage to my own employer’s and would work on being a sort of fan’s advocate, if you’re asking me to make my case. 

Other teams have tossed bloggers who don’t behave professionally. 

Teams aren’t going “ga-ga” over this, but it’s also the way the future’s headed, so this will slowly play itself out, and I hope that teams take a measured and cautious but open approach to sizing bloggers up and accrediting them based on a criteria that (hopefully) either the team and/or the PHWA and/or NHL will standardize.

Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 11/20/08 at 02:01 AM ET