But seriously, aren’t at least some die-hard Wings fans out there a little unnerved by the length of Johan Franzen’s contract?

Of course you don’t understand why he did it. If you did, you would be a General Manager of a pro hockey team and would have 4 Cups in the last 11 years. But you just right a blog. I would stick to knocking down GM’s that haven’t set the record for most 100 seasons in a row. The reason why we (Red WIngs fans) know this is a good move is because Tick Tock has an amazing track record and will go down as one of the best GM’s ever so why wouldn’t we trust him.

Posted by YYZerman from Detroit, Michigan on 04/11/09 at 02:55 PM ET

He won’t play 11 years. And thats the point. Because he was signed before he was 35, if he retires, those years do NOT count against the cap. Not sure if he got a no trade clause, but my guess he ends his career as a red wing at about 35..collecting heavy on a front loaded deal

Posted by mormerod19 on 04/11/09 at 02:59 PM ET

Every GM has the following problem, over any 10 year period he needs to have enough players to fill out 8200 games or approximately 108000 forward games, and 56000 defensemen games and 8200 goal tending games.

Zetterberg and now Franzen account for approximately 16400 of the forward games.

So on the one hand, part of Holland’s problem has been resolved.

But that still leaves approximately 90000 games that have to be filled with the rest of the roster and dollars.

Now if you look at the average NHL team, you observe that unless they win the draft lottery repeatedly like the Pens did, the team makeup consists of

18-23 players learning the ropes
23-28 players in their prime
28-34 players in their prime and declining
34-? players in full decline.

Thanks to the bizarre NHL free agent rules, the key to winning is:

over pay for players in the 34+ age bracket
under pay for players in the 28 and below age bracket.

Effectively Holland is betting that a declining Franzen at 40 is still better than what he would have to pay to get someone at the same age.

And the problem is I don’t understand buyout rules enough.

The real question is whether Holland is getting enough new players in the 28 and below age bracket or not.

Posted by kostadis roussos on 04/11/09 at 03:02 PM ET

I would stick to knocking down GM’s that haven’t set the record for most 100 seasons in a row.

But kicking Don Waddel when he’s down just isn’t that fun or interesting, you know?

Posted by Mike Chen on 04/11/09 at 03:02 PM ET

Wings need to either sign Hossa or use that $$$ on a goalie, sure 11 years for the mule is a bit scary but it keeps the cap hit down allowing us to do one of those things. Besides, he’s not going to play 11 years, the contract is front loaded and in 6-8 years when his body can’t handle it anymore and he’s only pulling in 1-2 mill a year he’ll retire and the remainder of his contract is off the books. Another thing to remember is Franzen is probably more important to the Wings than he would be for the 29 other clubs, the deal is a risk I’m willing to take.

Posted by Jeff on 04/11/09 at 03:03 PM ET

I agree 100%.  As per my comment in the main thread, the only advantage to this kind of deal is if Kenny gets to backload the money a year or two so that we can sign other people.

Otherwise, it’s a terrible idea and very un-Kenny.  These kinds of deals are normally signed by insane owners (I can think of the Islanders here..) and we’ve seen how those go.  Say one of them blows a knee, or just loses their drive to produce because they have no incentive a’la Yashin/Kipper/Jagr.  Not a very smart way to structure a contract if you ask me.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/11/09 at 03:07 PM ET

Two things:

1)  I don’t think it’s fair to compare these to the prospect of a Lindros 10-year deal, simply because the economic realities of a salary cap world is SO much different than a non-cap world.  There’s no reason to give Lindros a long-term contract in a non-cap world because if you’re Philadelphia you’re making a lot of money and willing to spend a lot of money so if you give him a three year deal at $x million and he tears it up, you can just give him another 3 year deal at twice the money.  But if you give Zetterberg a 3-year deal at $7M and he turns in Gretzky/Lemieux years of 150+ points, you can’t simply give him another contract for $14M a year three years down the road.  You almost HAVE to award potential in a salary cap world, but if you’re careful like Holland, you can sign guys like Franzen and Zetterberg for long contracts after a few years of good production, of potential having already been fulfilled, rather than as a 20 year old with who-knows-what kind of future.  Which brings me to…

2)  I don’t think anyone, on either side of the deal, Franzen OR Zetterberg, really expects either player to neccesarily be there at the end of their contracts.  But ANOTHER cap issue is that if you sign a player who is 35 or older, the cap hit remains even if they retire, so if you’ve got 29 year olds who are looking for 6-7 year deals, you may as well sign them to ten-plus so that if they retire at 37, the cap hit is off the books, rather than taking the risk of signing them to a deal at 35 years of age.  And of course, with the cap hit at $3.9M, you know that there are years where Franzen is making probably $6M, and if he retires after 9 years, what does a rich team like the Wings care if they’ve given him $37M of the $39M of the term?

Whether they’re a good idea is debatable, but they’re kind of neccesary if you want to keep your big guys (and if you don’t think Franzen is one of the big puzzle pieces, consider that Holmstrom is probably done after next year (though kinda thing he might actually be done after this year…), and who’s going to be the new big body in front of the net?  PLUS, he can do more than that!

I’m VERY happy with this signing.  I’d rather have Franzen making $4 million with a winged wheel on his shirt than making $5 or $6+ in a Ducks, Sharks, Hawks, WHATEVER jersey…

Posted by Garth on 04/11/09 at 03:07 PM ET

That’s a good point Garth.  And I have to imagine that with some players getting offered $10M/yr contracts in this day and age that these numbers will look better every year.

For fun I dug up Mats Sundin’s profile (getting paid a pro-rated 10M/yr at the end of his career):
GP G A Pts +/- PIM PPG PPA
40 9 19 28 -5 26 5 9

Now for Franzen’s last 40 (numbers now worth approx 4M/yr):
40 20 15 35 +18 18 7 5

A goal every other game for less than half of what some hairbrained GM’s are doling out these days for lesser help.  Now all we need to do is coat him in an iron-man suit of armor and make sure Stevie Y calls him every morning for a pep talk.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/11/09 at 03:24 PM ET

So, here’s my issue with this kind of argument.

Evaluating players and managing the cap is really hard.  Predicting future performance, the future cap, and managing that future cap is even harder.  So fans use comparisons.  People say a contract is good it pays a player less money than the players they consider similar are earning.  That works, because GMs and players often use similar reasoning to decide which contracts to sign.

But that strategy breaks down with a contract like this.  8+ year deals are still relatively new, so it’s hard to draw good comparisons.  The best comparison to be drawn are between the Zetterberg and Lecavalier deals, but that doesn’t how those deals compare to shorter-term deals.  Whether you think the Zetterberg or Lecavalier deal is better, they may both be bad deals compared to a more standard 4 year deal.  Franzen’s contract has that problem too.

Or in other words, your analysis may be correct, but it’s way too simplistic for me to say.  How much better are the Wings over the next five seasons with Franzen instead of $4m in cap space?  How much worse will they be in the five after that?  Then how good will the rest of the Wings be in each of those periods?  How does that affect their expected number of Cup wins in each period?

I have no idea, and neither do you.  My intuition is that this contract slightly increases the expected number of Cups in period one, and very slightly decreases the expected number of Cups in period two.  It sounds like yours is different, but without answers to those questions above, you won’t convince me mine’s wrong.

Posted by Ryan from Toronto on 04/11/09 at 03:40 PM ET

I’m not a huge sabermetrics guy when it comes to baseball but I always thought the Value Over Replacement figure was interesting. It’s definitely hard to apply to hockey but the basic idea is how much does a higher-paid player contribute compared to a statistically “average” player, and how does that contribute to wins. Something to think about with these long-term deals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_over_replacement_player

Posted by Mike Chen on 04/11/09 at 03:48 PM ET

C’mon, you’ve got to be crazy to criticize Holland even a bit for this! The only negative aspect of this deal, which you bring up and explain quite well with the comparison to Leclair, is simply a necessary evil in the salary cap era of the NHL. Either you experience a high level of player turnover, which makes it tough to win, go shorter term and have higher cap numbers that keep you from having depth (Tampa, Ottawa, Pittsburgh to an extent), or you do the long-term deals and accept the fact that in the latter years of the contract, you will likely have a player that’s “overpaid” at that point. Holland has no choice if he wants to keep continuity in the Detroit organization amongst the players on the ice. And continuity is key to having consistently good teams with a chance at winning. The Wings are a vastly different team than they were in 2002, but over the last seven years, the transition to where they are now has been so gradual that there was never a year when it was starkly obvious that the Red Wing team on the ice was different from the year prior.

The other thing that numerous posters have already pointed out—what are the odds either Franzen or Zetterberg actually play out these contracts? Zetterberg doesn’t have a bad injury history, but he’s not a big guy and is more likely to play 70 games per season than 82—enough to be consistently effective and impactful, and not bad enough to be a detriment like Gaborik or Havlat. Franzen has had similar seasons. I’ll never say never, but I would be surprised to see either player play past 36 or 37.

Lastly, I think these contracts are Ken Holland and Mike Ilitch’s way of calling the league’s bluff. If the CBA changes for its next iteration, as it is certain to do, these types of deals will essentially force Little Gary to actually listen and respect the opinions and needs of his premier franchises, instead of cow-towing to the lowly ones that he feels it’s his legacy to protect. I would expect either a revised buyout rule, or more likely, and more importantly, the allowing of restructured contracts in the next CBA. Or, if we’re really lucky, they’ll add some sort of luxury tax and a “Bird Rule” of sorts.

Ilitch can afford these contracts. That’s the last point that cannot be understated. Unlike some teams that have been in financial turmoil, including some marquee teams like Pittsburgh, Ilitch will see these things out. The money isn’t an issue, so Holland has the flexibility to get low, low cap numbers for premier players.

11 years is a long time, and yes, I would prefer less term as a Wings fan, but any time you get a player that will give you 35 goals, size, and penalty killing/defense (an area where Franzen is overlooked because of the players around him) for UNDER $4 million per season? It’s robbery.

When you hear other GMs or management-types around the NHL say they wouldn’t like the Zetterberg or Franzen deals, make no mistake about it, it all sounds like a lot of jealousy and sour grapes. Those guys just wish they could have the ownership support and organizational continuity that Holland has, and as such attracts players to his club for significantly less cap dollars than any other club would have to shell out.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/11/09 at 03:51 PM ET

Honestly, there’s really one easy way to judge it.

Ask yourself how many GMs wouldn’t jump at these deals.  You can’t argue with a Zetterberg deal or the deals Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin have gotten.  You could argue about the Franzen deal, but there are intangibles there.  His salary seems to be right in line with the players who are clustered around him in the points list.  Not to mention that the Wings can point to his production…four years in the NHL with four years of constantly improving numbers, a guy just entering the prime of his career.

Also, the Wings reward loyalty.  We all know that.  That’s part of the reason it was so surprising for them to sign Hossa to a one year “mercenary” deal.  Look how long some of their players have been with the tea,  Steve Yzerman played his entire career wearing a winged wheel.  Lidstrom, too and Holmstrom.  Kris Draper has essentially played his entire career with the Wings (all but 22 of his 1140+ career games), and indeed can thank the Wings and their $1 trade for even HAVING a career.  Maltby’s spent most of his career here.  Zetterberg looks to be doing the same, hopefully Pavel Datsyuk will, and now they’re looking for Franzen to do the same.

Gotta respect a franchise that wants to build their team from drafting and fostering their talent.

Posted by Garth on 04/11/09 at 04:21 PM ET

Why is my entire post in italics?  D’oh!

Posted by Garth on 04/11/09 at 04:22 PM ET

Fixed Garth, someone forgot to close a tag.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 04/11/09 at 04:25 PM ET

Thanks, Paul.  Thought it was something I did.

Posted by Garth on 04/11/09 at 04:31 PM ET

these types of deals will essentially force Little Gary to actually listen and respect the opinions and needs of his premier franchises

Bettman brought the NHL a salary cap, cost-certainty and, most importantly, had the foresight to sneak in recession-proofing measures like escrow and direct linkage of revenue (or lack thereof) to player compensation. Gary’s not going to be “forced” to listen to anyone anytime soon. Like him or not, this buys him nearly limitless leeway with the BoGs.

The Holland/Koules loophole will just be closed in the next CBA is all, possibly by forcing a static pay rate across the length of the contract rather than a variable one.

Posted by Steve on 04/11/09 at 04:37 PM ET

Sorry, I might’ve messed up closing an italics tag.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/11/09 at 04:38 PM ET

No problem Nathan, it happens to us all.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 04/11/09 at 04:40 PM ET

Ken Holland’s not a genius because the writer of this blog doesn’t understand what he did?

It’s a back-loaded deal, meant to help a team manipulate limited cap space. No one expects Franzen to be playing for the Red Wings in 2020.

Man, shake your head.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 04/11/09 at 04:43 PM ET

I think the deal is structured so that he’s making about $1 million for the last few seasons on his contract.  The Wings are paying more for a 38-year-old Kris Draper than that this year.  Maltby’s making nearly that much.

All that, and they still keep enough cap space over the next 6-7 years to have some flexibility in terms of the rest of their roster.  That gives you Z, Datsyuk, and Mule locked in long-term, at manageable prices (and Hossa, too, assuming he “buys in”).  Lidstrom’s deal is almost over, and he is sure to take a rather sizeable pay cut after next season (assuming he keeps playing), which leaves Rafalski, Kronwall, and Stuart, pretty good d-men all, also at relatively bargain prices.  Add in the Wings’ up-and-comers (see Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader, Leino, Ritola, Kindl, Axelsson, Ritola, McCollum) and some vets signed at relatively reasonable prices (e.g., Dan Cleary, Filppula), and you’ve got a team built to compete, year in, year out, for at least the next 6-7 years.

Yeah, Ken Holland is a big fat idiot.

Posted by mudshark from Divetown, Colorado on 04/11/09 at 05:26 PM ET

I just read 5M up front… not to back loaded to me… is this info wrong?  Does anyone actually have the real numbers?

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/11/09 at 05:27 PM ET

Bettman brought the NHL a salary cap, cost-certainty and, most importantly, had the foresight to sneak in recession-proofing measures like escrow and direct linkage of revenue (or lack thereof) to player compensation. Gary’s not going to be “forced” to listen to anyone anytime soon. Like him or not, this buys him nearly limitless leeway with the BoGs.

The Holland/Koules loophole will just be closed in the next CBA is all, possibly by forcing a static pay rate across the length of the contract rather than a variable one.

First of all, is “Steve” your real name, or is it “Gary”?

Even if Little Gary closes the “loophole” when the CBA expires and is redrafted, he can’t do so without providing clubs a fair mechanism for getting in line with the new rules, just like last time with the buyouts the league allowed the first post-lockout season. Too many—if not all—of the NHLs most important clubs will NEED this. You can’t have clubs stop signing players and cease trying to win simply because they don’t know what lies ahead for this communist system a few years from now.

I would be very surprised if the power clubs like Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, NYR, and Philly will be as agreeable next time around as they were previously. These clubs were quiet, did what they needed to do to get hockey back on the ice, and did what had to be done to keep peace amongst the owners and league office. If owners like Ilitch take it hard in the rear yet again, I would not just be surprised, but I would be incredibly disappointed. It’s that kinda garbage that turns me away from the NHL.

Does anyone really think this system is “working”? If anything, I imagine the escrow situation for this season, and likely next season, will do nothing more than breed contempt for the league office amongst the players, when they essentially give the league back massive chunks of cash they rightfully earned.

You know what this system is? It’s communism. Call me a stuck up Wings fan, I don’t give a shit—the bottom line is that teams like Detroit are subsidizing Nashville, Atlanta, Florida, Tampa Bay, Phoenix, and the Islanders. And to be quite honest, if teams like Anaheim, New Jersey, and Carolina didn’t have the good streak of recent success going, they’d probably be in the same boat. The Wings, Flyers, Leafs, etc. will all say the right things in public, but I cannot imagine that behind closed doors those ownership groups have anything but resentment for the current CBA.

Ethical arguments aside, how about actual hockey arguments? There’s no reward for being a good organization. You’re good at drafting? Great, you’ll have all that young talent for a season or two, before it’s experienced enough to have a realistic shot at the Cup, then you’ll lose half of it because of the cap. You attract free agents? Good for you, but in order to fit them in your cap structure you’ll have to either sign them for 1 year or 12. If the CBA at least had some sort of clause like the NBA’s “Bird Rule” that would allow clubs to retain talent they draft, they develop, and they are solely responsible for putting into the NHL, I think the clubs (and fans) like Detroit would be able to live with this system. Detroit had to give the LA Kings Kyle Quincey because of this. And with the stockpile they have in the AHL right now, there’s a chance in the next two or three seasons that they’ll have to give away another good NHL player for nothing.

Here’s the ultimate comedy of this joke of a CBA—the Nashville Predators. An exquisitely run organization. Poile and Trotz are second-to-none, and I’m including Detroit—I would put them on-par, that’s how good they’ve been. Before the lockout, the issue they had was they simply couldn’t afford to retain the talent they were drafting and/or developing. The cap and revenue sharing was supposed to remedy that. Well, where are they post-lockout? Same place they were before. They’ve been qualifying for revenue sharing by a thread, but because the floor has come up so high, they have to spend more than perhaps they can realistically afford. People thought it was rough for them when Radulov bolted for Russia? I’ll bet ownership was secretly happy because it was one less player they’d have to worry about losing in a season’s time. They had to get rid of their best defenseman (at the time) and a very good power forward because of issues of affording them—oh, and remember, this is in the cap system.

How good could that team look, with the prowess of Poile and Trotz, if Balsillie had bought ‘em pre-lockout and moved them to a viable hockey market? They would have a defense corps on par with Anaheim. They would have top two scoring lines boasting not just the likes of Erat, Arnott, Legwand, Dumont, and Sullivan, but perhaps Kariya, Radulov, and Hartnell.

Instead, they had to do things Gary’s way. Keep the team in Nashville. Don’t worry, we know you’ve got no corporate support in a city that’s never had a pond cold enough for a pick-up-game. But our cap and revenue sharing will save you! Yeah, right. Now they’re not even a playoff team. They could’ve easily been a Cup winner by now if they had a hockey city to play in. And I’m not even mentioning the joke of what happened with “Boots”.

Jeremy Jacobs and Gary Bettman are to the entire league what William Wirtz was to the Hawks.

And let me say this right now before people get in a tizzy. I know there are GREAT Preds fans. And I know there are a lot of them. Some of the Preds fans that I’ve had the pleasure of conversing with via this website and others over the past few years are the most passionate hockey fans out there. For their sake, I do wish their city was more hockey-crazy. I hope none of these fans take my above comments as a personal attack, because it is not. At some point, the truth is just the truth, and there’s nothing that can be done to sugar coat it. Despite some great, great fans, it has been proven that the widespread support just does not exist for hockey in Nashville. Unlike a non-hockey market like LA that is just plain way too big of a city to not have enough fans and corporate options to help keep their team on ice, Nashville is smaller and not a great media market. It’s just the sad truth for those fans, as well as for fans in cities like Atlanta and Phoenix. I don’t bring up the Preds’ situation as a “comedy” because I think the fans should be laughed at—if anything, I bring it up because it’s a shame that the fans that have latched onto the game over the last 11 years have to deal with these situations of seedy sales to sleazy owners forced through by the NHL league office, and that they have to fall victim to the fact that so many of their neighbors will never see the NHL as the awesome game it is, and that just might cost them their team.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/11/09 at 05:34 PM ET

I just read 5M up front… not to back loaded to me… is this info wrong?  Does anyone actually have the real numbers?

I believe he just mis-spoke—it’s clearly a front-loaded deal.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/11/09 at 05:37 PM ET

Kenny Holland is NOT your grandfather’s General Manager.

Posted by Jeebus on 04/11/09 at 05:41 PM ET

I just read 5M up front… not to back loaded to me… is this info wrong?  Does anyone actually have the real numbers?

It’s front-loaded.  The first few years are around $5M, the last three years are $2M, $1M and $1M, but the average is $3.9M, so that’s the hit for the entire length of the contract.  Theoretically there’s still room to sign Hossa, but I’m not holding my breath.

Posted by Garth on 04/11/09 at 05:41 PM ET

Basic point:

Franzen *developed* into a power forward but that is Not what he was originally drafted for, or only good for. He is a defensive minded forward first who gained a ton of confidence with the puck in the past few years. Great.

Kenny said today that he *hopes* Franzen will be a 30-40 goal scorer for the next few seasons, and as you point out, the production will probably dwindle after that. Luckily, we breed thee dimensional players here. He is also a solid face-off man, PK guy, and can be put out there for to close out a game.

Is he being paid for potential goal production? Sure, and that is indeed a risk. But that is not all he does. No Wing is only responsible for scoring goals. Not even close.

Sorry, but you really have it fundamentally wrong here.

Posted by Osrt on 04/11/09 at 06:06 PM ET

This contract blows, and it blows on two levels.

First, it blows because it’s an overpay, even at this allegedly ‘reduced’ cap hit of 3.9 mil.  Johan Franzen is not scoring 30 goals for 13 of the 15 other Western Conference teams.  Mayyyybe he does in in San Jose if Thornton is centering him.  That’s it.  His production is hugely hugely HUGELY aided by the Detroit system.  Elite centermen find him with the puck and he shoots it.  That’s certainly nice, and it’s certainly valuable… but Jesus.

Secondly, this contract blows because it just feels like cheating.  While Holland isn’t taking a gigantic crap all over the system, he’s certainly disregarding the spirit of the rules in favor of exploiting the loophole of a very recently-implement cap system.  Fine, fine… I understand how some people will feel that if you aren’t breaking a rule you can do whatever you want.  Well, here’s your comparison:

Last year in the playoffs Sean Avery wasn’t breaking any rules when he stood in front of the goalie, faced him, and mirrored his movements to prevent Brodeur from seeing anything.  That’s right, I said it.  I’m comparing what Ken Holland is doing with these asinine contracts to what that piece of crap Sean Avery was doing out on the ice.

It’s the same thing, and some other GM is going to really make the system look like crap when he offers some 27 year old player a 20 year deal… and why not?  What’s to prevent any GM from offering a guy a 20, or a 30 or a 40 year deal?

That’s not against the rules either.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/11/09 at 06:55 PM ET

For what it’s worth, in my perfect world, no one would ever get more than a five-year deal. Again, too many things to factor in: injuries, player passion, team chemistry, cap needs, etc. The biases of a cap system and the natural inflation of player salaries, along with the usual wackiness we come to expect around UFA time, will never, ever allow a perfect world to happen. But I always think that anything committed past is a bad idea.

Posted by Mike Chen on 04/11/09 at 07:24 PM ET

Cheating?  Really?  He’s actually taking a pretty enormous risk is what he’s doing.

Secondly, the cap is there to HELP teams that can’t afford to spend the type of money Detroit can.  It is a hindrance to Detroit.  It punishes an owner who is passionate about hockey and willing to spend money to win.  So, if he finds a creative way around it?  Good.  *#$%@& Bettman, *#$%@& small market teams and *#$%@& anyone who is crying about it.  ANY gm in the league can do what Holland is doing.  He isn’t even the first one to do it and he won’t be the last.  He’s taking a chance on Z and Mule…one might call it “having faith in” Z and Mule, and if he’s willing to take the chance, who are you to criticize?

It’s no worse than Pittsburgh, St Louis or anyone else demoting a player who signs for too much, or Tampa Bay trading away an injured goalie to qualify for revenue sharing.

To quote Ashley Judd in Heat: It’s risk versus reward, baby.

Posted by Garth on 04/11/09 at 07:38 PM ET

Yes, I mean front-loaded.

Was still pissed off about the worse penalty shot call in my lifetime.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 04/11/09 at 08:05 PM ET

His production is hugely hugely HUGELY aided by the Detroit system.  Elite centermen find him with the puck and he shoots it. 

Que? Franzen is a natural center. The Wing’s system also emphasizes defense and team production rather than individual heroics; why else would Datsyuk not have broken the 100 pt barrier by this point in his career? Why else has his game developed to the point where he will be a perennial Selke candidate?

While it’s true that Franzen has a good shot and can be set up for the one timer, his release is nowhere near Hossa’s or Shanahan’s, both of which better fit your description than does Mule. Franzen is much more likely to create his own space, set up a cycle or even dangle around people.

If you want to use the idiotic Avery comparison, then you should be ok with Holland essentially ruining his team and creating situations that will eventually get him fired. Sure someone out there might pick him up again, but Holland would be forced to amend his ways before ever being allowed to helm a team again.

No worries man, Kenny will get his.

Posted by Osrt on 04/11/09 at 08:11 PM ET

Honestly, who cares if Franzen will only score 30 for 2 teams in the western conference? As long as Detroit is one of them that’s all that counts, there’s quite a few players on that team that wouldn’t do anywhere near as good as they do with the Wings.

Posted by Jeff on 04/11/09 at 08:20 PM ET

Que? Franzen is a natural center.

... with 60 assists in 290 career games.  ‘Natural center’, eh?

If you want to use the idiotic Avery comparison, then you should be ok with Holland essentially ruining his team and creating situations that will eventually get him fired.

You’ve missed the point.  I’m not comparing Sean Avery in total to Ken Holland in total.  What I am doing is saying that exploiting a loophole in the CBA is exactly the same thing as exploiting a loophole in the rulebook.  It’s the same principle, and I don’t like that Ken Holland is doing it.

I understand why he is doing it.  I’m not saying it’s inherently wrong for him to do it.  Hell, I’m not even saying this is at all bad for the Wings.

All I am saying here is that this kind of conscious, premeditated and intentional disregard of the spirit of the cap makes Ken Holland, and by extension the Wings, look a little bit classless.  And I’m bummed out when the Wings look classless.

Now, I am absolutely positive that there are tons of fans in general and Wings fans in particular who don’t give a flying F what their favorite team ‘looks like’ as long as they win… and that’s totally fine.

I don’t share that opinion.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/11/09 at 09:15 PM ET

Props Nathan for the post.  I agree with you.  Nashville is a quality organization, and their fans are some of the best; I was amazed at the number of chants they pulled out of their butts in short order.  They’ve managed adverstiy with the best.  Too bad their city sucks, their commentators suck, their goons suck, and well, now, they’re out of the playoffs.  I’d like ‘em better if they were they Kansas City Sexual Predators.

Dead on about the CBA stuff, too…  bring on the bird rule and luxury tax.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/11/09 at 09:28 PM ET

HockeyinHD:

Please explain to me exactly how he’s cheating.  I have a simple mind.  I just don’t get it.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/11/09 at 09:38 PM ET

I don’t think Holland is ‘cheating’, per se.  It just feels like it.  It feels like winning ‘dirty’.  I get that there’s nothing in the rules which explicitly forbids Holland or any other GM from signing any player they want to a 10, 12, 15, 20, or 40 year contract.

It just seems like a fairly obvious attempt to circumvent the cap.  There’s nothing inherently ‘wrong’ with doing that, it just makes him look bad… in my opinion.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/11/09 at 09:47 PM ET

Ok, I get it.  I see where you’re coming from, however I kinda see it from a different angle, too; managers these days are now pressured into such longer term deals to promise a big total number to the folks they want to sign.  Kenny is definitely pioneering a new style, like Tampa, but I think more than they’re pushing the rules, the rules are pushing them.  And ultimately, I think it will hurt them, and others who follow in their footsteps and create a dangerous precedent, more than it will help them.

Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/11/09 at 10:06 PM ET

It may be detrimental to Gary’s “grand vision” but it’s hard to call it cheating and classless when the risk is still there.

If Franzen goes and starts bleeding from the brain again season after season, what good is he to the Wings? How are the Isle doing with DiPietro and his wonky knee? That wasn’t an engineered contract, but the length is certainly there. How many games has he played since signing? The Islanders are still paying him.

Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 04/11/09 at 10:49 PM ET

I think the aspect of ‘risk’ with regards to these deals is highly, highly overblown.

Any contract at any time can be completely removed from the NHL cap number by simply waiving the player and sending them down to the AHL affiliate.  The only exceptions to this are, as far as I know, instances where the player either is injured, or they have a No Movement Clause.

If Johan Franzen starts sucking tomorrow… Detroit has to pay out the money, yes.  But they can send him to Grand Rapids the day after tomorrow and as long as they don’t call him back up and expose him to re-entry waivers (when they would have to cover half of the cap number, and even then it’s just for the remainder of that year IIRC) that contract completely evaporates from the cap.

I don’t think having to pay out the cash, considering that the Wings were breaking even with 70 million dollar payrolls, is all that risky.  Now for other teams who have more immediate financial concerns, yes… these big money big term deals are inherently risky.  For Detroit, much less so.  I don’t think it would be at all improbable to suggest that the Wings have functioned at a total profit amount of 50+ million since the advent of the cap.  Even figuring in those early buyouts to Hatcher, Whitney, and McCarty (I think?  I forget which guys got bought out during the ‘free’ buyout period).

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/11/09 at 11:22 PM ET

spirit of the cap

Spirit of the cap?  What a ridiculous statement.  The “spirit of the cap” is to give every team equal footing.  How is he exploiting ANYTHING.  He’s doing something that any gm can do, and he’s not the only one doing it.  Just because he’s doing it BETTER than other gms doesn’t mean he’s cheating.  It means he’s smarter and he runs his organization in a way that makes his players want to help out in order to stay in Detroit.

Spirit of the cap?  Bite me.  It’s black and white.  People have been talking about the potential of these types of deals since the CBA was signed, and the CBA has been worded SPECIFICALLY for a reason.  It’s not a mistake that it is worded the way it is.  In fact, it takes a CONSCIOUS DECISION to word it so that the AVERAGE yearly salary is the cap hit, rather than each year having a different number.

Don’t like it?  Go cry to someone else, or maybe pray that your team has a GM smart enough to faithfully follow the LETTER of the cap rules, not some bullshit “spirit” that you made up because your team can’t do what Holland can.

Posted by Garth on 04/12/09 at 12:09 AM ET

“the spirit of the Cap” thing makes me giggle.  You’ve got to be frigging kidding me.  The Cap was designed to stem the Wings’ success, and to allow the Wings to share their financial successes with teams that Gary built who are failing.

I don’t give a flying F how the Wings do it, as long as they continue to do it and do it often.  Ken Holland is a genius and he’s playing within the confines of the rules established by Gary F’ing Bettman and his cronies.  Holland is stuffing those rules down their pie holes and laughing.

And I’m laughing with him.  What kind of “spirit” violations have been wrought upon the Wings.  Sticking them in the West and leaving them there through expansion doesn’t betray some sort of “spirit”?  Calling Tomas Holmstrom for interference when his ass is three feet outside the crease over and over isn’t a “spirit of the rule” infraction?

“spirit of the Cap”....whatever.  Keep doing what you’re doing Kenny.  Does it make me feel dirty?  Hell yeah.  And I’m loving it.  I’ll roll in that frigging slime all day bitches. 

Then I’ll clean myself off just in time for the parade.

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 04/12/09 at 05:47 AM ET

Spirit of the cap?  What a ridiculous statement.  The “spirit of the cap” is to give every team equal footing.

That’s not exactly the case, but whatever.

How is he exploiting ANYTHING.  He’s doing something that any gm can do, and he’s not the only one doing it.  Just because he’s doing it BETTER than other gms doesn’t mean he’s cheating.  It means he’s smarter and he runs his organization in a way that makes his players want to help out in order to stay in Detroit.

So then when Avery turned around, faced Brodeur, and waved his stick in his face you applauded him as well?

Spirit of the cap?  Bite me.  It’s black and white.

Well, not exactly.  Why not offer Franzen a 40 mil, 40 year contract?

Don’t like it?  Go cry to someone else, or maybe pray that your team has a GM smart enough to faithfully follow the LETTER of the cap rules, not some bullshit “spirit” that you made up because your team can’t do what Holland can.

Um, I’m a Wings fan.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/12/09 at 09:54 AM ET

“the spirit of the Cap” thing makes me giggle.  You’ve got to be frigging kidding me.  The Cap was designed to stem the Wings’ success, and to allow the Wings to share their financial successes with teams that Gary built who are failing.

I’m curious… do you think the Wings are the only team that was impacted by the cap, or who has to contribute to the revenue sharing kitty?

I don’t give a flying F how the Wings do it, as long as they continue to do it and do it often.  Ken Holland is a genius and he’s playing within the confines of the rules established by Gary F’ing Bettman and his cronies.  Holland is stuffing those rules down their pie holes and laughing.

How do you feel about steroids in Baseball in the 90’s and early 00’s?

And I’m laughing with him.  What kind of “spirit” violations have been wrought upon the Wings.  Sticking them in the West and leaving them there through expansion doesn’t betray some sort of “spirit”?  Calling Tomas Holmstrom for interference when his ass is three feet outside the crease over and over isn’t a “spirit of the rule” infraction?

As a general rule, I would prefer a team I root for to function above that, rather than by demeaning themselves and engaging in it. 

Another correlary here is Fighting.  Just because other teams may try and take liberties with the Wings doesn’t mean the team should allow themeslves to be goaded into reciprocating in kind.  Beat them within the rules of the game.  Beat them with class.  Same thing with the cap.  Just because the cap constricts what Detroit (as well as a number of other teams) can do, that shouldn’t mean the team should engage in Enron-ian practices to circumvent it… just like some guy running Datsyuk shouldn’t mean the Wings should start slashing other players on the arms and running the opponents goalie trying to put someone out for a month.

“spirit of the Cap”....whatever.  Keep doing what you’re doing Kenny.  Does it make me feel dirty?  Hell yeah.  And I’m loving it.  I’ll roll in that frigging slime all day bitches. 

Then I’ll clean myself off just in time for the parade.

Like I said before… some people couldn’t care less how their team wins, and that’s okay.  Giants fans cheered wildly for every home run Barry Bonds hit, too.  Nothing inherently wrong with that.

My standards are obviously different.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/12/09 at 10:03 AM ET

Like I said before… some people couldn’t care less how their team wins, and that’s okay.  Giants fans cheered wildly for every home run Barry Bonds hit, too.  Nothing inherently wrong with that.

My standards are obviously different.

Obviously. And comparing this to steroids is ridiculous.  Nothing Holland’s done is illegal. Not even close.  He’s simply playing the game as the rules are written.  Do you have a problem with the way Draper was winning faceoffs last Spring? 

As Baroque just said over at A2Y, this is a loophole created by or agreed to by the owners themselves.

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 04/12/09 at 10:17 AM ET

There’s nothing “classless” about this move. If anything, it’s “classless” to take money from well-run organizations and give it to awful ones in bad markets that will just throw the money away, like Holland’s old pal Don in Atlanta.

And Osrt, maybe I’m just reading this wrong, but does this quote mean you don’t like the Z and Franzen signings?

If you want to use the idiotic Avery comparison, then you should be ok with Holland essentially ruining his team and creating situations that will eventually get him fired. Sure someone out there might pick him up again, but Holland would be forced to amend his ways before ever being allowed to helm a team again.

No worries man, Kenny will get his.

I’ve re-read this quote a dozen times and it seems that’s what you’re saying. Which confuses me, because in this thread and in some other on the A2Y section you seem to be supporting this deal.

Holland hasn’t ruined anything. This is genius, actually. As has been pointed out, there’s no injury risk, in terms of the cap, thanks to LTIR. There’s no risk of an overblown cap number for a player that’s not producing going forward, thanks to the waiver system. And you can be damn sure that even though Ilitch would still be paying out cash on these contracts if one of these tough situations arises, he wouldn’t have let Holland do it if he couldn’t commit. Ilitch has proven he doesn’t give out checks he can’t cash, both literally and figuratively.

The only “risk” as I see it is that if a guy like Franzen stops producing unexpectedly, and the Wings have to send him to the AHL to clear up the cap space, it sends the wrong message to potential free agents and players in the organization. Suddenly, the Wings wouldn’t be the “loyal” organization that players want to be a part of any more. That’s the biggest risk of this. The other stuff is small potatoes, at worst. And honestly, I can’t even worry about that, because sports have always been about performance. It’s one thing when you’re Kris Draper or Kirk Maltby, near the end of your contracts anyways, but as loyal as the Wings are, the players know they need to produce, that’s the bottom line. D-Mac has spent the season in GR (when healthy). So has Downey. These guys helped win a Cup last season, and in Mac’s case, a few more in the past. But they know what it’s about. So I can’t even worry that it would sour the team’s image if it came to that.

All this shit is sour grapes. I can understand how a non-Wings fan would be sick of Detroit’s success. But it’s all been well within the rules, and completely fair. And the opposite of “classless”, when you consider how well the organization takes care of people, from Vladdie and Jiri Fischer and their tough situations, to veteran players that are honored and respected, even as their abilities deteriorate. And how they treat young players? Look no farther than Quincey or Meech, or Matt Ellis. Two guys that have had a tough time breaking into the every day lineup, not for lack of effort. What have those guys had to say about the Wings? Quincey and Ellis have praised them for the opportunity they’ve provided. And how about the things Ilitch does to make sure the players and their families are comfortable? We’ve all heard the stories about Ilitch helping players find the right schools for their kids. He works on a personal level. Hell, things like Red Bird One might not seem like much, but I think if you ask players that travel multiple time zones most road trips if they appreciate the luxury of that jet, they would put it up as one of the best benefits of being a Red Wing.

This club is all class, except for the weird Aurie situation. But that’s a WHOLE other topic. As for players in the here-and-now, there’s nothing but class from the Ilitches and front-office. For anyone that thinks these Franzen and Z contracts make the Wings classless, ask yourself one question—if the club were so classless, why would all these quality players be tripping over themselves running for their new, discounted contracts?

Watch the Zetterberg presser again. See the smile on that guy’s face? He can hardly talk at that presser. Hear how Mike Ilitch talks about Hank? Hear how Z talks about the Ilitches? There’s nothing phony there. You can’t fake those facial expressions from Z. These guys are treated well, and their families are taken care of. It’s all class—that’s why they like it here.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/12/09 at 10:45 AM ET

You have got to be kidding me. Steroids? What? If anything, the CAP is like steroids in that numerous steroids are illegal, and the cap is goddamn communism in North America.

I think it’s a shame players used steroids in baseball, but I think it’s a bigger shame that Selig and the owners cultivated an environment that promoted steroid use in order to recover from their labor dispute. Baseball owners may not have had a meeting where they said, “Hey, wanna get more ‘roids in the game so we have more home runs, that’ll bring fans back!” But it’s become abundantly obvious that almost everyone in baseball knew what had been going on for a number of years, and when the league came back and needed fans, the owners turned a blind eye to the steroid usage they knew damn well was happening.

Perhaps the biggest reason the analogy is way off? Steroids will physically damage these players later in life. It sets a terrible example for little league players and young athletes in general. The only message that the Franzen and Zetterberg contracts send is that if you treat people well, they’ll want to return the favor. Oh, and that there’s nothing wrong with earning a nice paycheck. Sound like good things, to me.

Enough, this isn’t a baseball blog. The point is the analogy is horrible.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/12/09 at 10:53 AM ET

So then when Avery turned around, faced Brodeur, and waved his stick in his face you applauded him as well?

No, I didn’t, manily because he’s not a Red Wing.  But do I think they should have amended the rules the day after?  Also no.  Same situation: if someone is smart enough to figure something out before anyone else does, why should he be persecuted for it?

Well, not exactly.  Why not offer Franzen a 40 mil, 40 year contract?

Because there are league minimum salaries and unless Franzen played all those 40 years, he wouldn’t get anywhere near the amount of money he’ll get with a $43mil, 11 year contract.  If league minimum is half a mil, then about 30 years of that contract which he isn’t going to play will be at half a mil.  That’s $15 mil he won’t see, whereas in this contract, if he retires after 7 years he will still have pocketed $35 mil.

The reason for this contract is to help the Wings cap AND help Franzen get a big payday.  40x40 accomplishes only one of those.

Duh!

How do you feel about steroids in Baseball in the 90’s and early 00’s?

You mean illegal drugs being used?  Yeah, wonderful comparison.

Beat them within the rules of the game.

Jesus, look at you and your contradictions!

Here’s a hint: That is EXACTLY what Holland is doing.  Operating legally, completely within the rules of the CBA.

Howsabout a little consistency on your part?

Posted by Garth on 04/12/09 at 12:48 PM ET

One of the downsides of internet comments is that it is rare that people can have an actual debate on the merits without personal attacks.  When you are face to face, the human element forces some modicum of intelligent discourse. But anyways…

As for this deal, it seems that most people are taking the black or white view: either Franzen is worth the money, or he stinks it up such that he gets waived or retires.  But what if he settles in as a 20 goal 45 point player in two years, and the cap goes down? Franzen has only had 1 great year and 1 good year, and he is already almost 30.  As a Sharks fan, Jonathan Cheechoo provides a nice scenario for Wings fan to be afraid of, and Cheechoo only has a couple of years left on his contract.  If he was on the books for another 8 or 9, that would be a bona fide nightmare.

And I think most people are missing Mike’s point… Franzen isn’t really the type of player that should get this contract.  Zetterberg… ehh maybe, though if anyone should, its someone like him.  Franzen? Just seems like an unnecessary risk, very un-Wings like.  Holland has been an amazing GM, but that doesn’t make him immune to criticism.  When the only other GMs that have made a move like yours are the GMs of the Islanders and Lightning, you don’t get a free pass…

Posted by Ruben on 04/12/09 at 01:25 PM ET

  If you want to use the idiotic Avery comparison, then you should be ok with Holland essentially ruining his team and creating situations that will eventually get him fired. Sure someone out there might pick him up again, but Holland would be forced to amend his ways before ever being allowed to helm a team again.

  No worries man, Kenny will get his.

I was being ironical Nathan, just following the “logic” of the Avery comparison to its conclusion.

Franzen isn’t really the type of player that should get this contract.  Zetterberg… ehh maybe, though if anyone should, its someone like him.

Good thing you’re not in charge of a NHL team, eh? Z doesn’t deserve his contract? Conn Smythe winner and a Selke nominee. Also, see my argument of Franzen’s multi-dimensionality above. Simply said, no Wing is trained or depended upon to simply score goals.

Posted by Osrt on 04/12/09 at 01:57 PM ET

No, I didn’t, manily because he’s not a Red Wing. 

Exactly.

The reason for this contract is to help the Wings cap AND help Franzen get a big payday.  40x40 accomplishes only one of those.

Duh!

Yeah, the numbers weren’t exactly good there.  My point is that if you’re okay with the idea of Holland giving out that contract, and you’re okay with in general with the idea of players getting contracts that it’s almost impossible they’ll see the end of, why not instead of Franzen’s deal the Wings just added 5 or 10 mil more (or whatever you’d have to do to make the salary step-downs work) and went out 40 years?

I think it’s a shame players used steroids in baseball, but I think it’s a bigger shame that Selig and the owners cultivated an environment that promoted steroid use in order to recover from their labor dispute.

And the existence of the cap doesn’t provide the same environment for GMs to explore every ‘gray area’ type of cap manipulation that the big money deals in baseball provided players to juice up?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 04/12/09 at 04:24 PM ET

why not instead of Franzen’s deal the Wings just added 5 or 10 mil more (or whatever you’d have to do to make the salary step-downs work) and went out 40 years?

Yikes, because AGAIN, Franzen wouldn’t get paid for any years he doesn’t play.  It’s feasible that a guy will play till he’s 39, 40.  It’s not feasible that he will play till he’s 69, 70.  So don’t be a retard.

Second, because Holland is willing to pay Franzen 43 million for 7 or 8 years.  Even to a team with deep pockets, another 5-10 mil isn’t just a drop in the bucket.

THIS is the difference between Holland’s contracts and those of, say, Glen Sather or Paul Holmgren.  People were saying that Gomez and Briere were worth $6-7 million a year, but Slats and Holmgren paid these two guys TEN MILLION per year.

Common wisdom is that Franzen could command $5-5.5mil a year, so he’s PAYING Franzen what people think he’s worth, but he’s worked the contract so that the cap his is less.

Is it REALLY that difficult to understand or are you deliberately trying to come off as being stupid?

Posted by Garth on 04/15/09 at 10:01 PM ET