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Chris Osgood And The Playoffs
by PuckStopsHere on 04/24/09 at 12:13 AM ET
Comments (31)
The Detroit Red Wings have been a very successful team in the past several years. They have won four Stanley Cups in the past twelve years. Because of their success many of their individual role players have achieved legacies above the level that their talent level might have predicted. There are no players who fit in this camp more than Chris Osgood.
Osgood is a good goaltender who has had a pretty long career. He has been able to win a lot of games (a team statistic). He has 389 career regular season wins. This ties him for tenth place overall with Dominik Hasek. That coupled with his team’s Stanley Cup success is often used as an argument for Osgood one day making the Hall of Fame.
The gaping hole in the argument is that there is no point in Osgood’s career where it is possible to make an argument that he was the best goaltender in the NHL. No point where you can make an argument that for an extended period of time he was number two or number three, stuck behind future Hall of Famers either. The closest thing to such an argument is the 1995/96 season where Osgood finished on the Second Team All Star and was runner up to the Vezina Trophy. He was a distant second to Vezina winner Jim Carey in the voting. This was in a league with Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Ed Belfour, Curtis Joseph, Martin Brodeur and others. The Vezina voting that year was seen as a group of underdogs, who never again deserved that level of Vezina support. Nevertheless, there is one season where it is possible to argue Osgood was the second best goalie in the league. That clearly puts him among a good group of goalies (including Roman Turek and Bob Froese).
How important was he to the Detroit Red Wings Stanley Cup wins? He was not important at all to the 1997 win. In the playoffs that year, he had 47 minutes played in two games. It was Mike Vernon who was in net for the Detroit Stanley Cup and won the Conn Smythe Trophy. The next season when Detroit returned to the Stanley Cup, since Vernon was traded, it was Osgood in goal. Along the run Osgood played some good games and also some poor ones letting in bad goals. The 1998 Stanley Cup run was often taken as a prime example that a team could win the Stanley Cup despite a lack of elite goaltending as long as the rest of the players were good enough. When Detroit won the Stanley Cup in 2002, Osgood was a member of the New York Islanders. Clearly he had no impact on that cup run. Last season was Osgood’s best cup run. He took over from Dominik Hasek early in the playoffs. He played some good hockey. When Osgood shut out the Pittsburgh Penguins in the first two games of the Stanley Cup finals, a few people suggested him as a Conn Smythe winner. Osgood stopped playing at that high level and the series went six games before Detroit won the cup. All told, Osgood put up a .930 saves percentage in that cup run and a 1.55 GAA. Those were his best playoff numbers ever.
This season was a disaster for Chris Osgood. His .887 saves percentage and 3.09 GAA were among the worst numbers put up in the league. Goaltending was the number one concern for the Red Wings as they entered the playoffs. Their first round was against the Columbus Blue Jackets. Columbus was the lowest scoring playoff team in the West Conference. Of all the possible playoff opponents for the Red Wings, this was the one that would least test their goaltending. Osgood was very good against the Blue Jackets. Through three games he had a 0.67 GAA and a .974 saves percentage. These numbers are as good as anyone in the league was doing. In game four he allowed five goals and those numbers ballooned a bit (to 1.75 and .936 - still good numbers) as Columbus was eliminated. It is still early in the playoffs and any future Red Wings opponents will be stronger offensively than Columbus. Likely Osgood’s numbers will continue to drop, but should Detroit manage to win the Stanley Cup they will not be able to drop too much.
Osgood has established a reputation as a good playoff goalie. This reputation comes from being on a team that has done well in the playoffs. It comes from the fact that his numbers have improved in the playoffs (he has a .906 saves percentage and 2.47 GAA in the regular season and excluding tonight’s game .915 saves percentage and 2.10 GAA in the playoffs in his career). It comes from the fact his team has been good enough to survive and still win in games when he makes gaffes. Osgood is a good goalie. He has never been a great goalie. That is why, barring significant future achievement, he is not a deserving Hall of Famer.
It is true that Chris Osgood has helped Detroit do well in the playoffs. It is also true that Kris Draper has helped Detroit do well in the playoffs or that Tomas Holmstrom has helped Detroit do well in the playoffs. Every winning playoff team has a solid supporting cast. When a member of that supporting cast is the goaltender he gets a larger degree of notice than he might deserve, but it doesn’t make him one of the best goalies in the league.
If Chris Osgood can continue to play as well as he has against Columbus, there is no reason that Detroit cannot win the Stanley Cup. Of course the playoffs get harder after the first round and there won’t be any more opponents that are as weak offensively as the Columbus Blue Jackets. It is no guarantee that Osgood can continue to play this well and there is no guarantee that any team will win in the playoffs. As well as Osgood has played in the first round, the Detroit Red Wings would be in better shape with a better goaltender in their nets.
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Tags: Chris+Osgood, Columbus+Blue+Jackets, Detroit+Red+Wings,
Comments
I have never understood what it is about Osgood that makes him a target for abuse. Yeah, he struggled this year, but so did the whole team defense in front of him. He didn’t steal any games, but he didn’t have to, either. I won’t argue whether he’s a Hall of Fame goalie (I don’t know how these things are decided), but I question your intent in writing the article.
Posted by PDXWing from Portland, OR on 04/24/09 at 01:04 AM ET
You’d make a great case for keeping Ken Dryden out of the HOF. He was an excellent goaltender who had the good fortune to have one of the great teams in NHL history in front of him. Ozzie is Ken Dryden with double the career (and check his winning percentage—it’s obscene).
Ozzie will finish his career with 450+ wins and at least three Cup rings, two of which he was the No. 1 goalie for. He already has 62 playoff victories—could wind up with 90-100. Hard to keep him out of the Hall of Fame.
Posted by DonK from Long Island on 04/24/09 at 01:06 AM ET
OZ-Good is one of the best goalies ever. F whoever says otherwise. Stats are stats, and Ozzies are next to none except Brodeur(who is the best goalie ever). So as I said before F U
Posted by scott from gr,mi on 04/24/09 at 01:07 AM ET
Oh, good job jackets, you had my panties in a bunch tonight. I didn’t think it was gonna happen,but you guys put up a hell of a fight.hoo-ahh
Posted by scott from gr,mi on 04/24/09 at 01:35 AM ET
So by this argument, you are also saying Broduer, Roy, heck even Sawchuk were not/are not HHOF, and ditto Lundqvist and Luongo, or play off goalies. Are all, as you say being able to win a lot of games is a team statistic.
Posted by Beanie on 04/24/09 at 02:20 AM ET
At no point in his career has it been reasonable to make the argument that Chris Osgood is the best goaltender in the NHL. You cannot even make the argument that he has been one of the two or three best for an extended period of time. The goalies that have been named by commenters are goalies who have been the best (or close to the best) at some point in their careers - and in many cases for long periods of their careers. THAT is the point that makes Chris Osgood a weak Hall of Fame candidate.
The case for Osgood is made up largely of team acheivements and longevity. Other goalies mentioned have team acheivements, individual achievements (Vezinas for example) and in many cases longevity as well. In many cases even their team acheivements exceed those of Osgood (Brodeur, Roy, Sawchuk…).
Detroit fans need a reality check if they think Chris Osgood is a Hall of Fame calibre goaltender. There are many goalies who are not in the Hall of Fame and never will get there who were better than Osgood.
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 04/24/09 at 02:34 AM ET
Luckily, you’re not on the HHOF Committee to decide that.
Posted by Jeebus on 04/24/09 at 04:45 AM ET
i dig the passion wings fans have for their team, and for their goalie - heck, it’s the only part of the team left for people to criticise these days - and certainly osgood’s ability to win the big games makes him a good goalie. BUT (and it’s a big but) he’s not a hall-of-fame goalie. i’ll ignore all the reasons above and just ask a question: does anyone think that, in twenty years time, when dad is talking to junior about the great red wings teams of the 90s/00s, chris osgood would get talked about in the first half hour? probably not… not before yzerman, lidstrom, konstantinov, larionov, holmstrom, draper, maltby, datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, hossa, hasek and chelios.
dunno that osgood will be crying himself to sleep about the HOF anyway. reckon there are quite a few people enshrined in toronto who would trade free entrace to a hockey musuem for three appearences on the stanley cup…
Posted by fredster from manchester on 04/24/09 at 06:10 AM ET
This debate will go on, until the Wings win the cup this year.
If they do, Ozzie is a lock for the hall.
The bigger picture is that Ozzie fits Ken Holland’s “team plan” very well.
Holland has said he will not spend mega-bucks on a tender.
He would rather put those big bucks on top defensemen, which he has.
So he is looking for a mature, reliable, very good goalie…and that is what Osgood is.
The more important question is: “How badly did he injure his groin in game 3?”
Posted by w2j2 on 04/24/09 at 06:14 AM ET
Detroit fans need a reality check if they think Chris Osgood is a Hall of Fame calibre goaltender.
I guess it will be an epic reality check for you when he gets in then…
does anyone think that, in twenty years time, when dad is talking to junior about the great red wings teams of the 90s/00s, chris osgood would get talked about in the first half hour?
I’ll answer your question: yes. You won’t be able to talk about any great team without mentioning the goalie. Ozzie’s run last year (Shared the fewest goals against in the regular season and played awesome in the play-offs) coupled with his apparent turn around in the play-offs (hopefully) will be a master stroke and should get him in without question if he wins a fourth ring.
But then again, he might let in 5 goals in one game sometime down the road and then lurkers who have nothing else to write about can jump all over him…again. He’s never had a losing season…ever. Not with either stints with the Wings, not when he was on a bad Islanders team (lead them into a rare post-season if I’m not mistaken), and not when he was with Blue Notes. So keep playing the “he’s been on good teams, that’s the only reason he’s had success” card if you must. Ozzie is used to hearing it, and so are we.
Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 04/24/09 at 06:41 AM ET
Detroit fans need a reality check if they think Chris Osgood is a Hall of Fame calibre goaltender. There are many goalies who are not in the Hall of Fame and never will get there who were better than Osgood.
Name them.
Posted by detroitdan1982 from St. John's, NL on 04/24/09 at 07:19 AM ET
OK detroitdan1982
I will give a partial list limited only to 10
1. Roagie Vachon
2. Andy Moog
3. John Vanbiesbrouck
4. Mike Vernon
5. Mike Liut
6. Mike Richter
7. Tom Barrasso
8. Pete Peeters
9. Roger Crozier
10. Chico Resch
I will stop there for now
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 04/24/09 at 07:26 AM ET
You wouldn’t have written this article before last night, and are therefore a tool, waiting for the first weak night so you can come out from under the stands with a literary cudgel to state something you consider, yourself, to be obvious.
but I question your intent in writing the article.
As do I. Interesting timing. These are the questions asked over the offseason or HOF induction season. You come off looking like a child by the timing.
“!@#@! they won. Well… uh… uh…. your goalie won’t be in the hall of fame! HA!”
Yeah, well Luongo is a greasy, streaky douchenozzle who looks down his nose at everyone, including his own team. I can be a troll too.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 04/24/09 at 07:34 AM ET
I will stop there for now
How many of them are fourth on the all-time playoff shutout list?
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 04/24/09 at 07:36 AM ET
How many of them are fourth on the all-time playoff shutout list?
And all those above him played at the same time, including 2 of the 3 tied with him?
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 04/24/09 at 07:38 AM ET
Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock are horrible coaches. The only reason they have as many wins coaching the wings is because they had such great players. Pavel Datsyuk is totally overrated. That is why he will never win the Hart. He is a horrible player, and is only good because he is on a good team.
You make your argument in a completely retarded way. Your argument can be made for any player on any team, as long as the team as a whole does an acceptable job.
You do not support a game of individuals. Hockey is a team sport. Everyone benefits from the people around them. No one in the NHL has an assist, if people around them can’t score goals. No one scores a goal if the people around them can’t get them the puck. No team wins a game if their goaltender can’t stop the puck. No goaltender can win if his team won’t score goals.
Osgood’s career numbers are good enough. His GAA and SV% are good. Damn good. “oh, well that is because he plays behind a good defense!” So does every goaltender on a team that has ever won shit.
No one has ever made the argument that Osgood is the best goaltender in the NHL. This is the same reason people overlook Datsyuk for the Hart, Babcock for the Adams, etc. Everyone on a GREAT team is overlooked for their individual achievements, because you can’t pinpoint who is responsible for the greatness.
Has Osgood ever been the best at the position? No. But I’ll tell you that there is a reason he still has a job. “it’s not because i’m a bad goalie.” His numbers are good enough for the HoF. He is good enough for the HoF.
Posted by Ha Hockey from Drunkland on 04/24/09 at 07:56 AM ET
I won’t argue whether he’s a Hall of Fame goalie (I don’t know how these things are decided), but I question your intent in writing the article.
He’s upset the Wings just won another playoff series so he’s lashing out any supposed chink in their armor he can find.
Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 04/24/09 at 08:04 AM ET
How important was he to the Detroit Red Wings Stanley Cup wins? He was not important at all to the 1997 win.
Well this is wrong. He played over half the regular season games that season and was very solid. I know, that’s not the playoffs, but you still have to play the regular season just to get there, and who knows how much more fresh Vernon was as a result of only playing in 33 games.
Otherwise, I won’t argue with your article like these other people… the only contention I would make is that your conclusion (the final paragraph) is world-of-duh, Captain Obvious stuff, so I’m not exactly sure what we were supposed to get from this.
1. Roagie Vachon
2. Andy Moog
3. John Vanbiesbrouck
4. Mike Vernon
5. Mike Liut
6. Mike Richter
7. Tom Barrasso
8. Pete Peeters
9. Roger Crozier
10. Chico Resch
Numbers 1, 2, 4, 6, and 7 should definitely be in the HOF. And while I can’t say Ozzie has a HOF resume YET, I think when he retires he will.
Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 04/24/09 at 08:07 AM ET
No Osgood in the HHOF, eh? Got it. Noted. I’m sure you make a fine argument.
Oh, but before I read it I seem to recall this…after four years you think Ovechkin belongs in the Hall.
Makes perfect sense.
Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 04/24/09 at 08:23 AM ET
Makes perfect sense. Ovechkin is the best player in the NHL and has won a large array of individual awards.
Can’t say that about Osgood can we?
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 04/24/09 at 08:47 AM ET
Can’t say that about Osgood can we?
You can’t say that about the majority of the players in the HOF, and that’s precisely where your argument falls apart.
Your entire argument against Osgood’s HOF induction is predicated on this idea that he was never considered the best goalie in the league at any time in his career.
Uhhhh…OK. I actually agree with you. Unfortunately, that has f*ck all to do with whether or not he’s HOF-worthy. You could also make the argument that Steve Yzerman was never considered the best forward in the league at any time during his career. Does that mean he doesn’t belong in the HOF?
Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 04/24/09 at 09:25 AM ET
Here are the standards I use when judging whether or not a player is Hall of Fame worthy.
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 04/24/09 at 09:27 AM ET
Does that mean you think Alexandre Daigle should be in the Hall? He put up some gaudy numbers in juniors and was considered the best young player entering the NHL since Mario Lemieux.
Posted by Muero from Ohio on 04/24/09 at 09:38 AM ET
I think what he means is any forward that played during the Gretzky-era should not be in the HOF because at no point during their career was it, “possible to make an argument that he was the best <strike>goaltender</strike> forward in the NHL.”
Got it, appreciate your insight. Or did I take your statements out of context and it’s just goaltenders that have to be the absolute best at their position before being considered for the HOF?
Explain.
Posted by some kid from brooklyn on 04/24/09 at 10:08 AM ET
Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock are horrible coaches. The only reason they have as many wins coaching the wings is because they had such great players. Pavel Datsyuk is totally overrated.
What sort of bizarro world do you live in, Ha? Bowman is the NHL’s winningest coach in its entire history, and the argument could be made his record could be held above any other coach in any other sport in the world. You need to check your facts.
I’d respond longer but this one’s just too easy.
Posted by Hippy Dave from Portland by way of Detroit on 04/24/09 at 01:32 PM ET
Look, everybody’s entitled to their opinion. I’m not going to guarantee you that Ozzie’s getting into the HOF, but statistically speaking, he’s got a very good shot. Then again, so does Dino Cicarrelli.
What I don’t understand is why you would dedicate an entire article/post to explaining why you feel that Chris Osgood - a goaltender on a team that you don’t even follow - won’t or shouldn’t be in the HOF. Writing a post/article about why someone should be in the HOF makes sense, but trying to knock a guy down a peg while he’s still playing seems a little petty.
Posted by DetCapC19 from Vancouver, BC on 04/24/09 at 01:35 PM ET
Hippy Dave, I’m pretty sure he/she was being facetious. Particularly since the next paragraph begins with “You make your argument in a completely retarded way.”
Posted by Aphaea from Pennsylvania on 04/24/09 at 01:41 PM ET
Please forgive the shameless self-promotion, but below is extract from an article entitled “Is Chris Osgood a Hockey Hall of Famer?” that I posted on my FoxSports blog “Hockey Hall Of Fame Hotstove” back on May 13, 2008 (almost a year ago) which I think contributes to the conversation.
”...The initial gut reaction for many (myself included) is that Chris Osgood isn’t a Hall of Famer. He doesn’t have the swagger of a Billy Smith or that aura that surrounded Grant Fuhr in his prime. Instead, Osgood has quietly put together a very impressive career, and with nine straight wins in this year’s playoffs [2008] he’s beginning to make some noise at last. So let’s take a closer look at Mr. Osgood…
“As of the end of this regular season [2007-08], Chris Osgood has won two Stanley Cups (albeit one as a caddy) and holds a regular season record of 363-195-66 in 664 games (a 0.596 winning percentage). Those are pretty good numbers thus far, which currently puts him in the same class (stastically, at least) as Hockey Hall of Fame hopefuls Rogie Vachon (3 Cups, 355 wins), Tom Barrasso (2 Cups, 369 wins), Andy Moog (3 Cups, 372 wins) and Mike Vernon (2 Cups, 385 wins). Each of those players have vocal lobbists passionately arguing for their induction and the Hall would clearly not be diminished by their inclusion.
“Let’s consider Osgood’s contemporaries: Among active goaltenders, only Martin Brodeur (3 Cups, 538 wins), Ed Belfour (1 Cup, 484 wins), Curtis Joseph (0 Cups, 449 wins) and Dominik Hasek (1 Cup, 389 wins) are ahead of Osgood in regular season wins. There is little doubt three of those four guys in front of Osgood are headed to the Hockey Hall of Fame shortly after they retire—the jury is still out for Curtis Joseph; subject matter for another blog someday. Osgood is among some select company.
“So, is Chris Osgood a Hockey Hall of Famer? I’d have to say he’s a player on the cusp, and this [2008] post-season could be critical to his chances, tipping him one way or the other in the minds of fans and HHOF Selection Committee members alike. If Osgood wins his third Stanley Cup this year (playing AHEAD of Hasek) and he pushes himself over 400 regular season wins (which is quite possible with another couple of seasons in the Motor City), the argument for his induction becomes significantly stronger and I’d wager it likely he makes the cut. Conversely, if Osgood loses out in the Final this season, he becomes labelled as a guy who couldn’t win with a great team in front of him and likely finds himself on his way out of Detroit and out of HHOF contention.”
Well, Osgood won that third Cup, now sits at 389 regular season wins (after a mixed 2008-09 regular season), and will play at least another series in the 2009 playoffs. If he wins that fourth Cup this playoff run, and pushes well past 400 wins next season, he becomes very difficult to ignore for the HHOF.
Posted by Matthew McCallum from Redding, California on 04/24/09 at 03:59 PM ET
You’ve come up with your own set of completely arbitrary rules for who belongs in the Hall and then you cherry-pick them to exclude anyone you don’t like.
Osgood is currently tenth all-time in career wins. Of the nine players ahead of him, all current or future members of the Hall, only two (Jacques Plante and Martin Brodeur) have a lower GAA. He was won the Stanley Cup three times, twice as a starter. He has never had a losing season.
No point where you can make an argument that for an extended period of time he was number two or number three, stuck behind future Hall of Famers either.
This is obviously false; you yourself listed all the Hall of Famers he has been stuck behind. Your argument that he has never been considered the best goalie in the league is specious, as others have pointed out. He has played his entire career in the shadow of Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, and Martin Brodeur. You want him to be better than them to be considered Hall-worthy? That’s ridiculous. Those are pantheon players, the type of players that make the rest of the Hall look ordinary. You actually mention Roy, Brodeur, and Terry Sawchuk as players whose “team achievements” exceed Osgood’s. Those are the three best goalies of all time; their achievements exceed those of all other goalies ever.
Posted by monkey from here to Timbuktu on 04/26/09 at 08:00 AM ET
I would argue that Osgood was the best goaltender in the league in the 95-96 season.
Carey won the Vezina, but Osgood was clearly the better goalie in all the areas that mattered. Not his fault he played a split season. Even had he played 20 more games he could have lost them all and still had a better winning %. He led the league in wins and played fewer games than all his peers like Hasek and Broduer. He was shafted then and for some unknown reason continues to be to this day in the eyes of many people.
1995-96 stats:
Osgood 50 games played 39-6-5 - .780 win % - 2.17 GAA - 9.11 save %
Carey 71 games played 35-24-9 - ..493 win % - 2.26 GAA - 9.06 save % = Vezina
Posted by Paul from Michigan on 05/15/09 at 03:09 PM ET
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blah blah blah. ozzie is tied for fourth all time in playoff shutouts and by the time he should be able to pass cujo for third. He was the reason they won the cup last year because hasek couldn’t get it done in the first two games. the last time i checked hockey is a team game so his 389 wins is a big stat. I guess marty broduers wins shouldn’t count either since its a team stat.
get real numbnuts. He should be a hall a famer when his career is over
Posted by ME on 04/24/09 at 12:40 AM ET