hahaha.

Miller is still leading a team of misfits strongly to the playoffs. 

Ovechkin is one of many stars. 

Does that mean OV isn’t an MVP, no of course not.

But you didn’t make any serious case that Miller isn’t MVP.

Posted by moore00 from the Ohio State University on 02/03/10 at 11:20 AM ET

The serious case for Miller not being MVP is that he no longer leads the NHL in win shares.  You have commented on enough of these types of posts to know that is the way I pick an MVP (or any other award winner).  If Miller’s numbers fall and he gets closer to the pack of goalies then he will not have as many win shares as if he was the leader by a more significant margin.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 02/03/10 at 11:23 AM ET

Oh, good, I can sleep now, TPSH has declared his opinion.  Phew.

Posted by Harrald on 02/03/10 at 11:50 AM ET

The Sabres wouldn’t win anything without Miller.  The Caps did just fine without Ovechkin when he was out.  The argument in the past is that Ovechkin should win the award because he was the only reason the Caps are contenders. Definitely not true anymore.  Last night Ovechkin got an empty netter because he, as usual, was cherry-picking and his teammates felt sorry for him because he had no points up until then in the game.  Miller should still be above Ovechkin.  And how about Crosby?  Ovechkin is still doing the same thing as last year, but Crosby has taken his whole game to a new level with more shooting, better defense, better faceoffs and better shootout skills.  Pretty lame if your only criteria is scoring.

Posted by VAHockeyFan on 02/03/10 at 12:12 PM ET

The serious case for Miller not being MVP is that he no longer leads the NHL in win shares.

That’s a serious case?

Posted by mrfluffy from Cincy on 02/03/10 at 12:15 PM ET

How about Crosby? He’s way more valuable to his team than Ovechkin is to his.
The Penguins have not played up to their potential this season. And they don’t have the talent that Washington does and he’s playing with scrubs, yet he has 37 goals and is a top faceoff guy in the NHL this season.  He’s single handidly why they’re in the top four in the Eastern Conference.

Posted by Colton from calgary on 02/03/10 at 12:37 PM ET

His goals against average is second in the league to Antti Niemi of Chicago and could soon be caught by others including Tuukka Rask of Boston.

Niemi has played in 18 games and Rask in 23 compared to Millers 47 of a possible 54 games played. Comparing their numbers is ridiculous.

And because another goalie has an incredible 93% save percentage (Vokoun) it somehow makes Millers accomplishments this season less worthy? I don’t get it. Why?

Posted by Steve Strowbridge from St. John's, NL, CA on 02/03/10 at 12:39 PM ET

Miller’s case for MVP drops as his numbers drop - and they have been dropping - that is why he is seeing other goalies catch his numbers.

Colton

Do you seriously want to say that the defending Stanley Cup champions are not a talented team?

In fact, arguing about the talent level of a team should have nothing to do with who is the MVP.

The MVP is the player who produces the most wins for his team (and we get to argue about who this is since we cannot accurately model it).  it doesnt matter if he is part of a team with lots of win producers or part of a team with no other big win producers.

what is more valuable?  A million dollar diamond in a box of several $500 k diamonds or a $700 k diamond in a box of gravel?  The “logic” people want to use to pick MVPs is to pick the less valuable $700 k diamond because the rest of its box is gravel - when the reality is it is less valuable than the million dollar one and the box it happens to be in has nothing to do with the question.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 02/03/10 at 12:45 PM ET

when the reality is it is less valuable than the million dollar one and the box it happens to be in has nothing to do with the question.

Maybe it has nothing to do with the way you want to interpret the question, but it DOES have something to do with the way the voters have interpreted the question. They all pick the MVP as who is the most valuable to their team. So in other words, that $700K diamond would be the MVP because without him, his box would just be a bunch of gravel. Take OV out of the team, and they still have an increasingly solid defense, and a VERY potent offense. Take Miller away from the Sabers? They’re looking for a lottery pick.

Posted by Kstewy16 on 02/03/10 at 12:58 PM ET

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 02/03/10 at 11:45 AM ET

I’d agree with you if we were talking about any other league where the MVP is the Most Valuable Player in the league, but NHL’s MVP is defined as the “most valuable to his team”.

Your (stretched out) metaphore makes some sense, but I disagree with the conclusion.

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 02/03/10 at 01:00 PM ET

Arguably, the MVP has to be on a somewhat successful team (or there wouldn’t be any “value” on that team) but that the team would not have achieved that level of success without that player.  His play should take that team TO another level.  You could argue that about many players.  The Sabres are way back in the pack without Miller, and, even though the Pens are talented, Crosby is the only one who has really consistently showed up this season AND taken his play to another level.  The Pens would still be contenders but would definitely be in the bubble pack and not at the top without Crosby.  Sure, Ovechkin scores tons, but the rest of the Caps score tons too.  The Caps still win the (hapless) SE without him and are playoff bound and no lower than 3rd in the East without him.  Of course, you could be just like the Caps fans who want to just be given the Cup now since they are so great instead of earning it in June.....Ovechkin, just on his reputation and his scoring (empty netters) then deserves the MVP?

Posted by VAHockeyFan on 02/03/10 at 01:03 PM ET

Bryzgalov, Miller, Brodeur, Crosby and probably even Jimmy Howard are all “more valuable to their team” and have “produce(d) more wins” than Ovechkin in this particular year.

It would be easier to argue for Ovechkin if goalies were left out (some MVP voters don’t vote for goaltenders), but since the last choice was Miller, I take it goalies are in consideration and that’s not the case.

However, Phoenix, NJ, Buffalo and probably Detroit (though mostly due to injuries than personnel) don’t have a sniff at a playoff spot if their goaltenders were replaced by, say, Vesa Toskala.

That Ovechkin’s the most talented or best guy is a pretty easy case to make, but the Caps once scored 7 goals in a game that he was loafing and didn’t even have an assist, which makes me think they’d do perfectly fine producing wins without him.

Posted by steve on 02/03/10 at 02:55 PM ET

I think if Ovechkin doesn’t win MPV, people are going to regret it in a few years. He’s too driven and dominant to not win a few cups. Him not winning MPV would be as idiotic as Steve Nash winning as many MPVs as Shaq and Kobe combined. Oh wait, that farce is actually true.

Posted by fooly on 02/03/10 at 03:46 PM ET

Sabres fan here… I wouldn’t dispute this decision.  Ovechkin is the best player in the league and while he has a handful of excellent players on his team and they played very well when he was hurt, his importance can’t be overstated.  That said, Miller is heads and shoulders above all others the most important player on his team.  His performance has cooled a bit but he’s still been very good.  The case can be made either way.

Posted by Rob Paxon from Corfu, NY on 02/03/10 at 03:49 PM ET

Ovechkin dosen’t kill penalties or take face-offs. His team was 6-2 in games he didn’t play. As far as goals this season. He does have 36, but he also leads the league in empty netters (4) and in shootouts he’s just 1 for 5. If you take away empty net goals and add shootout goals to a players total you’ll have a better understanding of a player’s true GPG average.

player goals-empty netters+shootoutgoals = total

Ovechkin 36 - 4 + 1= 33 in 48gp .69 gpg
Crosby 37 - 1 + 6= 42 in 56gp .75 gpgMarleau 37 -1 + 1= 37 in 56gp .66 gpg
Gaborik 34- 0 + 1= 35 in 55gp .64 gpg
Kovalchuk 31 - 1 + 2 = 32 in 49gp .65 gpg

While Ovechkin still has a very good GPG, it’s not far and away the highest in the league (this season) as many believe, in fact it’s actually second to Sid when you factor in shootout goals (btw, it’s a joke the league doesn’t). And the Team’s record without him has count against him.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/03/10 at 04:05 PM ET

who in their right mind would include shootout goals in each players real goal total? 

you fail just for that.

Posted by Ben from VA on 02/03/10 at 04:19 PM ET

“In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.”

From The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock (1917), By T.S. Eliot

Posted by Matthew McCallum from Redding, California on 02/03/10 at 04:23 PM ET

lmao shootout goals into consideration…

what a crosby homer

Posted by silenslaya on 02/03/10 at 04:27 PM ET

Just trying to get Sid some help in the Hart race.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/03/10 at 04:41 PM ET

Fooly: who will regret it if Ovechkin doesn’t win the MVP and why?  What an idiotic statement.  Ovechkin is a lethal offensive weapon to score.  That’s it.  Miller shuts down games, Crosby is the better overall player.  Only the Ovechkin groupies will regret his not winning the MVP.  The rest of us will look at the big picture rationally and see that you are wrong.  Plus, he needs to win ONE Cup before he can win multiple Cups.

On the shootout goals, I don’t see counting them, but it should be considered in the MVP argument.  Sid knew that if he could get better in the shootout, his team would win more games.  To date he is 6 for 7 in shootouts and his team hasn’t lost a single shootout. (7-0).....that’s being valuable to your team.  Plus, are those empty netters of Ovechkins valuable?  That’s a farce.  He lurks on the blue line and cherry picks.  Better captains would get the puck to another player that hasn’t had a goal in a while and share the wealth.

Posted by VAHockeyFan on 02/03/10 at 05:20 PM ET

Crosby has had a great year.  He will probably score 50 for the first time, and carried the Pens while Malkin pulled disappearing act for a week or two.  Being a Caps fan, I can’t bring myself to give him more props than that.

Every one of these players in the Hart discussion are valuable to their team. Just because the Caps have players like Green, Semin, and Backstrom doesn’t mean that Ovechkin is somehow “less important” to helping his team win.  If he continues at the scoring pace he is on, and the Capitals can win the President’s trophy, I would expect Ovechkin to take home both the Hart and the Pearson.

My Hart Rankings
1. Ovechkin
2. H. Sedin
3. Miller
4. Crosby
5. Thornton

Posted by Matt on 02/03/10 at 05:37 PM ET

first off...i’m a pens fan.

ovie is unreal on offense...he is one of the top 3 natural goal scorers I have ever seen (other 2 being lemieux & gretzky).  This year I have seen him “attempt” to play more defense, but still his focus is 90% offense.  He doesn’t often bust his *** to get back to play d, he usually lurks around the blue line.  In addition, if you watch caps games and the other team pulls the goalie...he stays out for the rest of the game.  I watched a game a week or two ago where he stayed out for 90 seconds with no goalie and finally got the goal.

My other knock against ovechkin....I don’t think the MVP should be a dirty player who was kicked out of 2 games and suspended for one.  He has all the talent in the world but needs to learn to hit clean...Stop leaving the ice on hits and going for knees - I know caps fans will argue, but it’s true.  With the way he plays the game, I foresee a big decline in his offense within 4-5 years...unless he makes a change.  All of these big hits and some cheap, cause issues to his body, which will effect his longevity in the league.

I also don’t agree with Miller for MVP.  He has had a solid year, but the team has played pretty well and he is starting to come down from his high.

Naturally, I think crosby should be in the mix for his play, and I definitely think Sedin should be there.

My top 3 would be Crosby, Sedin, Ovie (not necessarily in that order) - but again, OV doesn’t do enough in my eyes to be an mvp and he needs to stop the dirty hits and suspensions don’t help.

One name not mentioned much is Gaborik though.  Can you imagine how much WORSE the rangers would be without Gaborik?  wow.

Posted by crayz on 02/03/10 at 06:05 PM ET

How is a Crosby an MVP candidate? Did anyone watch the finals last year? Malkin Staal, Fleury, Talbot, Scuderi all had a bigger impact than Crosby did. Their record without them is like .600 in the regular season iirc.

My top 3 would be

1. Miller: Sabres would have made the playoffs last year if he didnt get hurt, look where they are now.

2. H. Sedin: Best foward in the game right now, imo. Career year in the tougher conference.

3. I. Bryzgalov: Leading the most suprising team to their 1st playoff birth in 8 years.

Posted by EpicFail88 on 02/03/10 at 09:17 PM ET

Did anyone watch the finals last year?

And that has what to do with the 09-10 Hart Trophy?
Allow me to answer my own question.

Abso- *#$%@&’-lutely nothing!!

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/03/10 at 09:51 PM ET

Matt: How does being a top scorer on a team that has tons of top scorers make Ovechkin such a valuable player?  Take his 2-3 points out of these games and the Caps still win.  Frankly, though, he can have all the hardware he wants, including the Pres. Trophy.  I just want the big one.

Posted by VAHockeyFan on 02/03/10 at 10:21 PM ET

@crayz

I will say that I am caps fan who likes the pens second most (steelers fan, pirates fan...seriously). Grew up in DC area, am canadian so played hockey, met caps, became bigger caps fan around 94 or so blah blah blah.

That said: The offense for the caps runs through ovechkin still. He too has altered his game. He has become a more complete offensively player. His passing (or desire to do so) is much greater than it was in the past. That doesn’t mean that the team isn’t great around them. They are, but he still makes it tick. That isn’t as much of the case with crosby. Crosby has Staal and Malkin behind him (blah blah blah malkins numbers are bad this year) They are still the best team down the center. Brendan Morrison is clearly neither of those guys.

Ovechkin skates wide. He hits peoples knees because his body position is weird. Additionally Crosby skates like a pretty nova scotian, and punches people in the dick when they aren’t suspecting it, as well as taking dives. I’m not trying to hate on Cros here, but seriously, he does bitch a lot, and take dives. This could be a style preference and I personally like Ovies (I’m more of a geno man myself, but that guy falls on the ice every five seconds)

Quietly, ovechkin has changed his game a good deal. He isn’t really hitting guys as much. He used to be completely reckless (now he is only moderately reckless). He is 30th in the league in hits right now, by the way. His contributions on the ice go to winning corner battles like that and making game changing hits while taking a physical toll. As far as his production value in 4 to 5 years (as much as I would like to see it stay the same) it has absolutely no place in this argument.

Defensively Ovechkin is one of the best neutral zone players we have. He is also good at agitating point men, hitting on his own half board, and block shots. It isn’t necessarily the prettiest in the world, but he is certainly effective, games are won in the neutral zone (personally I think Malkin is better than Crosby here).

As for the empty netter cherry picking goals. He has two cherry pick goals like that. One was an amazing sprint past the reach of pronger. I digress, here is my (stupid) argument: Is it not valuable to have a guy that you know is going to score and ice the game. The capitals defense and goalie situation is not great. The penalty kill is below average. So how does it not make sense to stretch the other team out and ice the game with your best player. I think the strategy is working pretty well so far.

Another interesting tidbit as far a division play is concerned since the south east is such a hot topic:

Ovechkin has only 6 goals against the south east:
October 29 @ ATL: Two goals to open the game (caps are dominant when up 2-0)
December 7 @ TBL: Two goals in a 3 goal shutout (the game winner and the third one… it wasn’t an empty netter)
January 13 @ FLA: A goal early in the third to make it 3-4 Florida that really lead the final push to come back from 4-1 down and tie it up (caps won in shootout)
January 31 VS TBL: Late game winner in the 3rd.

He isn’t really beating up on the crappy southeast here and certainly not carolina.
He is most frequently seen getting kicked out or suspended for these games.

Ovechkin’s Production value (avg ice time per point) is also around a stellar 13 minutes.

Gaborik should be in it if the rangers make the playoffs… but so too then should Hank and that’s not gonna happen.

Honestly: I put Crosby over Sedin maybe because I’ve seen Crosby play more but my list today looks like this

(if playoffs) Tomas Vokoun
Crosby
Ovie
Miller

No order

I think the way that ovie and the caps have played themselves into Presidents trophy contention since ovie’s captaincy is remarkable and that being the most importantly player on the best team is certainly something to value greatly.

Posted by andge from college park, md on 02/04/10 at 05:19 AM ET

And that has what to do with the 09-10 Hart Trophy?
Allow me to answer my own question.

Abso- *#$%@&’-lutely nothing!!

Um, everything. It basically proved the Pens can win in the most important part of the year without Crosby doing anything. It would be like Brodeur getting nominated for this year’s Vezina when they were just fine with Scott Clemensen last year.

Posted by EpicFail88 on 02/04/10 at 06:23 AM ET

Those of yo who say Crosby is the better plaer are deluded...O plays WAY more complete hockey than Crosby.  He has more assists, pretty much the same amount of goals, and a way better plus/minus all in 9 less games played!  He also hits (I kow you crosby luvers think he is a dirty player).  OV also had better similar stats when the Caps sucked...and Pitt has plenty of talent on that team, they just are not playing defense.  I think if you asked any GM or coach if they could have O or Crosby, they would picl OV.  He has stepped up the D hence a kick a** +/- and has not sacrificed his scoring...and has pretty much doubled his assists.  He has been in the top 5 of all major forward stats all season.  Crosby dosn’t hold a candle to Crosby.

Posted by Rachel from MD on 02/04/10 at 07:51 AM ET

I think if you asked any GM or coach if they could have O or Crosby, they would picl OV. 
Posted by Rachel from MD

Twenty-eight GMs took part in the third annual poll for TSN, and the franchise player most coveted was Crosby, with 98 points in a 5-3-1 weighted system. Crosby was the top choice on 15 ballots.

Ovechkin topped Luongo 66 to 38 in terms of voting points, but its worth noting that Canucks captain had more first place votes (7) than the Russian gunner (5).

Others getting votes were Dion Phaneuf (21 points), Henrik Zetterberg (12), Carey Price (4), Zdeno Chara (3), Eric Staal (3), Ryan Getzlaf (1), top prospect Viktor Hedman (1), Evgeni Malkin (1), Ryan Miller (1), Jonathan Toews (1) and Shea Weber (1).

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 09:03 AM ET

Ahhh....the delusional Ovechkin lovers.  They kiss his jock and talk about Crosby whining and diving.  How long you been watching hockey....6-9 months? And to say that the Caps are better because he is captain is just bizarre.  BTW...he has 4 empty netters this season.  Stays out an extra shift to get them at the end.  Great leadership.

Posted by VAHockeyFan on 02/04/10 at 10:55 AM ET

Ok, how is Crosby better at D than OV when OV has the best +/- in the league. Some people value that stat more than others, but really...you have to consider that maybe he is playing better D than you give him credit for. 

As for his lack of time on the PK...Why would any coach in his right mind have the best scorer in the league waste minutes on the PK.  I think OV would be great on the PK, because he is fast and physical...but again..why put him there?

Remember that OV has played 9-10 games less than Crysby.  OV is an all around player this season...scoring, hitting, more assists than Crosby, and playing D...ok...he doesn’t do faceoffs(but we have the best face off guy in the league...so again...why put him there?

Posted by Rachel from MD on 02/04/10 at 11:03 AM ET

Defensively Ovechkin is one of the best neutral zone players we have. He is also good at agitating point men, hitting on his own half board, and block shots. It isn’t necessarily the prettiest in the world, but he is certainly effective, games are won in the neutral zone (personally I think Malkin is better than Crosby here).

Against Detroit, I seem to remember Ovechkin abandoning Rafalski to cover Lidstrom (who already had a guy on him), thinking he could steal the puck and get a breakaway. Needless to say, Lidstrom just passed it to Rafalski, who was wide open and scored. Avoidable, bone-headed, selfish and not at all indicative that Ovechkin cares about defensive responsibility.

Posted by steve on 02/04/10 at 11:24 AM ET

best scorer in the league

There you said it yourself, best scorer.
Not best all-around hockey player or most valuable.
There 6-2 without him this year.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 11:30 AM ET

@ steve...yes, because even the best players NEVER can make a mistake…

@ Lindas1st...He is the best scorer AND the best all around player in the league!  I watch every Caps game and about half to 60% of Pens games...so at least I know how to compare the two players.  Crosby is a great player (I hate him, but can’t deny that he is amazing)...Ovechkin just has that extra something that puts him above all others.

Even if you hate OV and love Crosby...the stats this year don’t lie!  OV has played 8 less games and leads Crosby in every stat except goals( 1 behind).  If OV were not a good defensive player he would not have a +/- of 36!!! esp. since last year he had 6!!!  that kind of improvement can not be overlooked.  The fact of the matter is, that very few goals are scored against the Caps when he is on the ice.

I also think it is hard to compare the 2 because they are different kinds of players...OV is physical and has a wicked shot and amazing puck handling skills(his passing has also gotten pretty awesome recently) Whereas Crosby get the gritty goals and is great on faceoffs.

Pens/Caps fans will always disagree on this, and both sides are pretty biased(myself included) OV is not a selfish player...his job is to score goals, and thats what he does...he truly seems happier when someone else scores, and he passes the puck very generously.

Posted by Rachel from MD on 02/04/10 at 11:54 AM ET

@ lidas1st

Forgot to ask...why would any coach put the best scorer in the league on the PK?  That is a waste of his minutes!

Posted by Rachel from MD on 02/04/10 at 11:57 AM ET

@ Rachel

You posed the question about who would GM’s pick. Well I found a sourvey asking that exact question and 15 out of 28 picked Crosby. That’s a fact. Who’s the best is all opinion. So I’m not going to argue you about opinions, you have yours and I have mine.
I will leave you with one mental note concerning last season’s playoffs that is an actual fact.
Remember game 7 in the playoff when “OV” had a breakaway in the first period? I do, and he failed in the biggest moment of his career. Also, in the third when Sid buried his breakaway chance, do you know who he stole the puck from? I do the “not so great8”.

Now this has nothing to do with who is this year’s Hart winner so far is. But it does have a bearing on how I deside who’s a better all-around player in general.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 12:21 PM ET

@Lindas1st, let’s make a few corrections to your last post:  that poll about GM’s picking Crosby was from 2008.  Who knows what they’d say now.  Second, that little series you talked about during game 7, while you were correct on the first part of Ovi missing the breakaway, Pens fans love to leave out that the second part, the Caps were killing a penalty and were going all out trying to score even while killing a penalty, so they WERE TAKING CHANCES.  Crosby didn’t take the puck from Ovi, another Pens player did and Crosby picked it up.  Still a great play by Crosby, but it wasn’t like a 5-on-5 situation.

Crosby is definitely on the list for this year’s MVP, and there’s still a lot of games left, so who knows what will happen.  But right now with everything I’ve read and heard, Ovi has the lead.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 12:36 PM ET

@steve, you’re correct on that one play against the Wings, but that’s ONE play.  Are you going to tell me that none of the top players make mistakes?  And Ovi wasn’t the only one at fault during that goal.

Everyone who says Ovi doesn’t play defense haven’t watched him play.  His defense has improved tremendously.  And he now has more assists than goals--how is that being selfish?  Is Crosby selfish because he has more goals than assists?  Ovi is constantly setting up Backstrom or Knuble.

Also, for those who didn’t read, Bruce told reporters that last year, with about 10 games to play, he told Ovi that he was going to play him more to help him try to surpass Malkin for the Art Ross, and Ovi told him he didn’t care about any award other than the cup.  Yep, that’s a real sign of someone who’s selfish.

As I said above, it’s still early, but I think it’s pretty obvious who is the frontrunner right now for MVP.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 12:42 PM ET

@dfe123

Thank you!!!!!!! How can a player with a +/- 36 be bad a defense!  It makes no sense!  Don’t get me wrong, Crosby is having a great year (much to my dismay), but I truly believe that OV has become the complete package...esp. since he took the C.

I don’t know if OV will get MVP this year (there are a lot of contenders, the suspension doesn’t help, and I think you would have to be the clear winner to get it 3X in a row) I really just want the cup, and I think that is all OV cares about as well.

Posted by Rachel from MD on 02/04/10 at 01:04 PM ET

Sorry guys, I’m part of the mentality that Goalies shouldn’t win the Hart because they have the Vezina which is the mvp-of the goalies. Though I think it could be doled out to a goalie in a rare and certainly special case.

Miller no longer has this case. Sure he is leading a team of misfits to the playoffs, but he is no longer leading the league in...anything. Begining of the year, it was clear he was carrying the Sabres and had the stats to back it up.

My choices:

Alex Ovechkin - He’s already the reigning Hart trohpy twice and continues to prove why. Best league averages for ppg and gpg, second in points and 3rd in goals while missing almost 10 games. He’s also become a very good defensive player since wearing the C (the caps are 13-1-0, i believe, since he was anointed and in that span have averaged 1.8 goals against a 86% pk and Ovie is a league leading +36)

H. Sedin - Having the best year of his career, puts up points like a madman and the synergy between Henrik and Daniel has gone through the roof and easily makes the most dangerous line in hockey in my ind. The Canucks would be in a much dimmer spot without this Sedin.

Patrick Marleau - All my time watching hockey, never heard so little about a guy leading the league in goals. At 37 goals he is close to or already broken his best for goals in a season. He doesn’t get a lot of credit playing with Jumo Joe Thorton who did make the err wonderful Johnny Cheechoo into a 50 goal scorer, and then without into a small time scorer

Posted by breaklance on 02/04/10 at 01:10 PM ET

You know you’re in a thread with a bunch of pen homers when you don’t see henrik sedins name mentioned once for an mvp argument.

Quit fooling yourselves. Pens wouldn’t be anywhere without crosby right now? I’m sorry but you have MAF, Evgeni Malkin, Sergei Gonchar, Bill Guerin, and Jordan Staal. Your team is just as talented as the caps, and they are playing lightyears ahead of you right now, while you’re struggling to keep up with new jersey.

Posted by Carpet on 02/04/10 at 01:20 PM ET

Crosby didn’t take the puck from Ovi, another Pens player did and Crosby picked it up.  Still a great play by Crosby, but it wasn’t like a 5-on-5 situation.

Green passed it back to the point where Ovechin tried to go by Satan, Crosby read the play beatifully and swooped in and took the puck . Satan never touched it,he might have slashed at Ovechkin’s stick but it didn’t matter, Sid was taking that puck no matter what.
As far as it being a Pens power play, this just proves the point that the reason Ovechkin doesn’t kill penalties is not because of ice time, but because he’s to much of a risk to put out there.

I agree with you on this year’s MVP race, it’s still early and someone still has a chance to break out.

Ovi is constantly setting up Backstrom or Knuble.

I agree Ovechkin is a better passer than most people give him credit for, but keep in mind of his 40 or so assists 17 have come on the PP which are usually rebound assists or deflection assists from his shots. And probably a couple more at even strength.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 01:20 PM ET

And picking up an assist on a rebound is bad?  I had no idea.  So maybe Ovi, with the hardest shot on the team, shouldn’t be shooting it, hoping for a rebound that Knuble (which is what he was brought in for) can put in the net. 

Bruce has said before that he doesn’t have Ovi killing penalties because Ovi is always blocking shots, and he doesn’t want him to get hurt, not because Ovi is a liability on the PK.  In fact, when Bruce had him killing penalties during the preseason, Ovi scored 2 SH goals, so I wouldn’t consider that a liability.

It’s obvious to me that you’ve only watched Ovi when he’s playing against the Pens.  He is passing a ton, not rebounds, but passing.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 01:48 PM ET

@carpet, I could definitely see H. Sedin winning the Hart.  If I had to pick a group right now, it’d be, in no particular order:

H. Sedin,
Gaborik
Miller
Ovi
Crosby

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 01:51 PM ET

the most amazing thing about ovechkin’s season is how much more of a two way player he has become. his meteoric increase in plus minus can not be understated.  He is by far the most valuable player to his team (the caps are 14-1 since he was named team captain). In addition to putting up better points, goals and assists per game than crosby...he does so playing fewer shifts and minutes per game the lacrimal cherub from the squeal city. the only contenders for MVP at this point are Miller - who has single handedly kept the Sabres in contention...and H. Sedin...for providing enough firepower to keep the ‘nucks from wallowing in their own filth for yet another season.

Posted by Dot Dash from kemp mill on 02/04/10 at 02:06 PM ET

And picking up an assist on a rebound is bad?

Did I write that? No, I actually wrote: I agree Ovechkin is a better passer than most people give him credit for

Bruce has said before that he doesn’t have Ovi killing penalties because Ovi is always blocking shots, and he doesn’t want him to get hurt,

That’s funny always “blocking shots”.
He’s got 10 all season (he’s tied for 545th), and those probably just hit him.
Bruce is saying that to ptotect Ovechkin from his detractors that say he’s not good defencively.
Look what happen when he said and correctly so, that Ovechkin was “reckless”. The Caps PR got to Boudreau and he was backtracking the next day. Why? To protect Ovechkin from the media using Boudreau own words in desribing how Ovechkin hits other players.

See you in the playoffs dfe123

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 02:08 PM ET

@ Lindas1st, it’s pretty obvious to me that you’ll make a compliment about Ovi and then turn it into a negative anyway you can.  Ovi was blocking shots while he was on the PK--I guess you just can’t believe that.  Bruce isn’t saying that to protect Ovi, give me a break.

I have no problem with saying that Ovi is reckless sometimes.  Ovi also has over 900 hits in his short career.  With that many hits, you’re going to some that are “reckless.”

I just think it’s funny that Pens fans can’t stand anything positive about Ovi and have to come on immediately and refute it.  If my team had just won the cup, I’d still be basking in the glow--not worrying about whether someone might think that Ovi is a better player than Crosby.  Time will tell, and if Crosby wins it this year, good for him.  He’s definitely having a great season, and his confidence is at an all-time high.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 02:27 PM ET

If OV were not a good defensive player he would not have a +/- of 36!!!

Marek Malik was not a good defensive player (or offensive player) and had a better +/- than Lidstrom two years in a row.

steve, you’re correct on that one play against the Wings, but that’s ONE play.  Are you going to tell me that none of the top players make mistakes?  And Ovi wasn’t the only one at fault during that goal.

There’s a big difference between occasionally losing body position on a guy or having a risky pass intercepted vs. deliberately abandoning a dangerous pointman, while short-handed, on the off-chance that you might be able to steal a puck from the best defenseman of his generation and go on a breakaway (ie not happening). That is very telling about Ovechkin’s priorities.

And no. No one else can be faulted on that play. Ovechkin abandoned his assignment, while shorthanded, to skate halfway across the ice and try and steal the puck from a guy who was properly covered and not prone to turnovers. That guy passed it through Ovechkin to Ovechkin’s assigned man, who simply walked right in and scored. 100% his fault. 0% anyone else’s.

Ovechkin’s always doing stuff like this--leaving the zone before his team has clear possession, shooting at empty netters from icing territory, overextending shifts by 60-90 seconds to loaf in the neutral zone, etc.. The only other star player you see cutting corners like this is Kovalchuk. I’ll stand with all the other non-capital-fan posters and agree that Ovechkin’s defensive play is an atrocity.

Doing these horrible things less-frequently than two years ago does not mean he’s a better defensive player--it means he’s a less abysmal one. If you want to see what a good defensive forward looks like, spend a game keying in on Pavel Datsyuk, Jordan Staal or any devils forward, taking care to notice what they do without the puck. It’s very, very different stuff than what you see from Ovechkin.

I said towards the beginning of this thread that Ovechkin as “best player in the league” is a pretty easily make-able case. But to toss around words like “complete” in reference to him is to delude one’s self, let alone “more complete than...(insert complete player)”

Posted by steve on 02/04/10 at 02:39 PM ET

He is by far the most valuable player to his team

The Caps are 6-2 with out him that’s a 75% points pct. Their points percentage with him in the line-up is around 73% about the same but less, not some huge difference he’s making. I know it’s a small sample but it’s a fact.

The Caps are + 56 as a team when counting even strength and shorthanded goals. Oveckin is +36 for the season. The Pens are +19 in the same situations and Crosby is +10. So if you compare how each player is doing relative to how his team is doing it’s closer than people realize, with Ovechkin getting a slight edge. It stands to reason that a player on a good team getting alot of ice time is going to have more chances at a positive shift compared to a player on a weaker team getting the same ice time.  And right now there’s no denying that the Caps are better then the Pens.

he does so playing fewer shifts and minutes per game

Their average total ice time per game is negligible. Sid-21:47. OV-21:22
Their total shifts per game are: Sid 23, OV 20.
The reason Crosby averages more is because Oveckin is averaging 66 seconds per shift and taking those 2 minute PP shifts in which he floats. So he doesn’t get as many. As opposed to Crosby who goes all out on his entire shifts which average about 10 seconds less. So he ends up with a couple more.

These long shifts must be a Russian thing because Malkin has a tendency to linger on his shifts as well.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 02:42 PM ET

@Steve, just curious, how many Caps games have you watched?

And on that play, they weren’t short-handed.  Semin had the puck, Ovi was going for the pass from Semin to get it out of the zone, and Semin lost the puck.  Did Ovi leave his man, yes.  Did his man score, yes.  Did Ovi make a mistake, yes.  But that’s one mistake.  And the one thing that’s great about Ovi, he admits his mistakes.  I’m not worried at all about Ovi’s priorites.  Ovi’s priorities are where they need to be--see the quote from Bruce about trying to get Ovi more points and Ovi’s response in my first comment to you.

@Lindas1st:  Crosby going all out on every shift and Ovi doesn’t?  HA, HA, HA.  Please.  As I said before, obvious you’ve only watched Ovi when he’s played the Pens and nothing more and are probably also quoting what you’ve read from fellow Pens fans.  I could post the point per minute chart that I saw the other day, Ovi’s at the top and I think Crosby was like 8th.  But of course you’ll only believe stats if they help your guy.

As I said before, if Crosby wins the Hart, it’s no skin off my back, good for him.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 03:00 PM ET

@Steve, just curious, how many Caps games have you watched?

Transplant to Washington during the first two seasons after the lockout and had CSN but not center ice for most of that time, so, I don’t know, maybe 150 in those two years? Probably another 40-60 since. Lets go with 200 since the lockout.

You?

Posted by steve on 02/04/10 at 03:17 PM ET

Since 1998.

So if you’re watched all of these Caps games and you’re so unimpressed by Ovi’s defensive abilities, let me ask you this:

Why did he win the Pearson last year, which was probably his worst year defensively?  Do you really think the players would have voted him as the NHL’s most outstanding player if his defensive play was an “atrocity?”

What do Staal and Datsyuk (who is one of my favorite players) have in common?  They’re both centers.  Centers have different defensive responsibilities than wingers.  Apples and oranges.  I think they’re amazing players, and if you’re a fan who appreciates the defensive part of a game first, then no problem, and I can understand why you’d appreciate them more than Ovi.  But it all comes back around to the Pearson, and I still can’t imagine any player voting for Ovi if they thought his defensive play was abysmal.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 03:33 PM ET

@ dfe123
Centers have more defensive responsibilities than wingers. *fix

I watch the Caps whenever the Pens aren’t on, like tonight I’ll watch.
In fact, tonight when the game is on do yourself a favor and just watch how much Ovechkin floats. And for the big hits. You’ll also notice it’s only when a player has his head down and is vulnerable that Ovechkin will through a hit. Or if he’s made because he got hit (like the other night in Boston when Boychuk hit him).  And he very seldom goes into puck scrums and fights for pucks. He lingers around everybody else and waits for a loose puck to pop out. Whereas Crosby actually goes into the scrums and fights for the puck.

Watch, you’ll see for yourself

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 03:54 PM ET

Yeps, that’s right, Centers are more defensive responsibilities than wingers.  Let’s see, let’s quote another survey:  top players for their position in the last 10 years.  Guess who won for left winger.  Guess who didn’t win for center.

And guess what, I’ve never said that Ovi never floats.  And I’ve actually said I’d like to see Ovi fight more in the corners.  Ovi however is the “outlet” man more often than not.  He does go in and fight for pucks, but he also needs to be available for the outlet pass to get the puck out of the zone.  Just as Crosby’s game is evolving, so is Ovi’s.

LMAO at your description of his hits--I guess you have to do that ‘cause Crosby rarely hits.  I’ll ask you the same question I asked Steve:  If Ovi is such a dirty player and does cheap hits and only floats around, why did the NHL players (who obviously would know better than us) give him the Pearson?

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 04:03 PM ET

Cherry Picking:  Since when does a player deserve criticism for empty-net goals?  Think about why the net is empty...because the other team is desperate, playing 6-on-5, swarming the offensive zone trying to tie the game before time expires.  Ovechkin relishes those moments.  He is in the thick of it, and if the other team has any kind of lapse, Ovechkin is able to effectively end the game because of his talent.

Leadership:  The team has won 14 out of 15 with Ovechkin as captain.  Enough said.

Defense:  +36, while Crosby is +10.  I can’t figure out how that makes Crosby better, but whatever.

Passion:  No other Capital comes close.  He is the MVP of this team because of his passion.  He is the heart and soul of the Capitals, and the reason they win 6 of 8 with him sitting out is because they love him, fight for him, and don’t want to let him down.  Laugh if you want, but a leader elevates the play of those around him.  Crosby does this, Ovechkin does it better.

1.) Ovechkin
2.) Sedin
3.) Miller

Posted by Leopard Seal from Fairfax, VA on 02/04/10 at 05:55 PM ET

Guess who didn’t win for center.
That’s because center is the deepest foward position and left wing is the weakest position overall in the league. And probably in the history of the NHL.  If you know anything about hockey you’ll understand this to be true. In the Hockey News’ Top 50 player’s of All-Time (’97) only 5 Left Wings made it and only one in the top 10 All-Time (R. Hull). As opposed to 19 centers with 3 in the top 10 and #1 overall (Gretzky). The reason is most very good hockey players who are a left shot usually play center and most good right shots usually play right wing .  I know Ovechkin plays the off wing(right shot-left wing) but that’s unusual.

If Ovi is such a dirty player

If? there’a no question about it, he was already suspended for a diirty knee on knee hit.

Being great and dirty are not mutually exclusive. A player can be both. e.g. Pronger
And don’t act like he never curls off his forcheck when a defenceman knows he’s coming. He might not all the time, but more often then not he does.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/04/10 at 09:01 PM ET

@Lindas1st,

He had a dirty play--doesn’t make him a dirty player.  There is a difference.  Heck even Sakic was suspended.  Was he a dirty player?  I still say, and you STILL haven’t answered me, why would NHL players vote him for the Pearson if they felt he was a dirty player?  Or he didn’t give his all, or all he did was cherry pick, or if he only cared about himself?

As far as curling off if a defenseman knows he’s coming?  What?  I’m so glad you have your personal ESP with Ovi and know what he’s thinking all the time.  Maybe he curled off because the defenseman no longer had the puck.  Maybe he curled off because the defensemen turned his back at the last second.  If there’s one thing the suspension taught him, it’s to be more careful and to pick his hits more carefully. 

And if you were so carefully watching tonight, I think you must have seen an MVP-worthy performance.  There he was out there with the empty net--not because his coach wants to pad his stats or Ovi wants an empty-net goal.  He was out there because of his skill and his fearlessness.  He blocked a shot and would have blocked a second one that didn’t get through. 

I think it’s become obvious to me that Pens fans learn everything from their HOMER announcers, you know the ones who say things like:  Ovechkin’s in town, everyone watch their knees; or look how small the C is on Ovechkin’s jersey--it looks like he got it at the 5-and-dime.  I’d almost love it if Benninati said:  Crosby’s in town, everyone watch their nuts.  But of course he wouldn’t say that ‘cause he has class.

The end result is some Pens fans (not all ‘cause I know a few who play hockey) cannot accept the fact that Ovi is a great player and that other players think so, too, and that more and more, everyone is realizing that he’s unique.  Thank God the NHL has realized what they have in Ovi and have promoted him the way they should have since the beginning.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/04/10 at 11:42 PM ET

@dfe123

And if you were so carefully watching tonight, I think you must have seen an MVP-worthy performance

I watched and listened to the MSG announces kiss his a$$. He even got first star of the game. What a joke. Any objective observer watching the game knows that Backstrom was the best player on the ice tonight, hands down. Ovechkin played his usual solid game but was not the first star IMO.
Having said that, I do think Ovechkin is a great player. How’s this, I beleive he has the best shot probably in the historyof the game. He deserved the Hart two years ago and I had no problem with him winning it last year. He was definitly lacking in offensive support and carried the team offensively both seasons.
But this year alot of his teammates have stepped up and carrying a lot of the offence on most nights. I’m not saying he’s not as good as he was the last two seasons. I’m just saying he’s not as valuable to the Caps this season as he was the past two. And I believe there are other players out there who are more important to their team’s success. Crosby, Sedin, Miller to name three.

I don’t know about you but I can’t wait for the playoffs and I hope to the high heavens the Pens and Caps meet again.

Thanx for the back & forth dfe123,but I’m out, ga’nite.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/05/10 at 12:22 AM ET

I gotta give you credit--didn’t know if you’d respond after Ovi’s performance, although once again, you have to put a dig in saying he wasn’t the star of the game.  Just because Backstrom has more points doesn’t automatically make him the best player out on the ice.  There are still the intangibles that Ovi did tonight that made him the first star.  Ovi was just on tonight, and you could tell there was no stopping him.

I will say this, if Malkin keeps having his up and down season, I could see Crosby winning the Hart and as I said before, I’d have no problem with it.  But if Malkin catches fire, it might be tough for Crosby to win. 

I thought you’d have a great chance of overtaking NJ in the Atlantic, but now that they’ve acquired Kovy--well, I guess we’ll have to see how he fits in there.

Don’t really want to see you guys in the playoffs as the Pens have always had our number.  So if your team could get knocked off before we have to play you, I’d appreciate that.

Looking forward to Sunday’s game and as I said after the 1st meeting, I’d like to win, but I won’t be upset if we lose as long as we’re in the game.  I’d just like to feel that we can hang with the SC champs.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/05/10 at 12:37 AM ET

Obviously, nothing will diminish a championship, but it will be so much sweeter if the Caps beat the Pens on their way to the Finals.  I do NOT want the Pens eliminated by someone else, it HAS to be Washington.  And of course, it has to be in 6 games or less. 

And I get so weary of these know-it-alls who say things like “If you know anything about hockey...” and then dare you to dispute some theory of theirs.  Like disagreeing with them proves that you are a clueless bandwagoner.

Posted by Leopard Seal from Fairfax, VA on 02/05/10 at 10:06 AM ET

All the talk about short-handed goals, yet Crosby has his fair share of short-handed assists this year as well.

It’s tough to argue that Crosby is somehow stepping up offensively when his goals have gone up significantly, yet his assists have dropped precipitously.  He’s trailing Ovechkin in both categories having played more games.

I can not believe people are making the arguments about his defensive play, either.  I’m not even referring to his league-leading +/-, but how about the fact that last night was the first time in eight games that Ovechkin had been on the ice for a goal against?

Posted by Nomad on 02/05/10 at 10:49 AM ET

Blasts, typing too fast for my own good - empty netters, not short-handers.

Posted by Nomad on 02/05/10 at 10:50 AM ET

Don’t really want to see you guys in the playoffs as the Pens have always had our number.  So if your team could get knocked off before we have to play you, I’d appreciate that.

I understand that point, but must of those series were played well before these players were invovled. These players have basically played that one series last season. And from an entertainment stand point it was the best series in all the playoffs.

Ovi was just on tonight, and you could tell there was no stopping him.

I’ll say this about Oveckin, it was on Knubble’s goal when he had the puck and was going down the right wing boards. It made me think about what you wrote earlier about him evolving as a player. If this was 2 years ago he probably would have just put a sharp angle shot on goal, but last night he didn’t. He held the puck went around the net and made a very good pass to Backstrom who in turn made a great pass to Knubble who basically had a tap in. It’sa new wrinkle in Ovechkin’s game. Which is one of the reasons his assists are up. But it also goes to my point that he’s playing with good players now.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/05/10 at 02:08 PM ET

I thought you’d have a great chance of overtaking NJ in the Atlantic, but now that they’ve acquired Kovy--well, I guess we’ll have to see how he fits in there.

This might make it tough for every team in the East. Maybe.

Posted by Lindas1st from New England on 02/05/10 at 02:10 PM ET

Why did he win the Pearson last year, which was probably his worst year defensively?  Do you really think the players would have voted him as the NHL’s most outstanding player if his defensive play was an “atrocity?”

Uh, yeah. Jagr won the Pearson, I think, five times and it took him 15-20 seconds to get back to his own end sometimes. Lemieux won his share of Pearsons and was a bigger cherry-picker than Ovechkin on most nights. Heck, Brett Hull won a few Pearsons and was worse defensively than anyone mentioned until he started playing for Hitchcock.

If Ovi is such a dirty player and does cheap hits and only floats around, why did the NHL players (who obviously would know better than us) give him the Pearson?

Didn’t say he was dirty and I certainly didn’t say anything about his effort. I said his defense used to be terrible, now it’s better, but still not very good. I also said he’s not the best hart candidate based on the criteria that comes with it’s awarding, though that’s mostly due to the fact that the Capitals have sooooo many quality forwards right now. If you did a Pittsburgh and Washington forward fantasy draft, excluded the top three forwards on each team (Staal, Malkin, Crosby, OV, Semin, Backstrom), the next nine draft picks might be Capitals. Make no mistake, Washington is probably still the best team in the East if Ovechkin gets hit by a bus tomorrow.

Look, Ovechkin gets knocked a lot and that comes with being the king (you’ll also note that, despite his defensive shortcomings, I think calling him the best player in hockey is a pretty easy case to make right now, his deadliness outweighs his shortcomings by a lot).

Sometimes knocked unfairly (ex. doesn’t pass may have been true in early 2007, but is totally, laughably bogus now), doesn’t care about winning (did anybody watch his performance in the playoffs last year? Without him, it would have been a sweep. They almost won. Ditto Philly, the year before).

Sometimes arguably: dirtiness is up for debate, I can understand the pros and cons; selfishness there’s evidence both ways (neglecting to pass to Green on an EN opportunity during the latter’s streak last year, his wasting a lot of shifts against Philly in 2008 in a stupid preoccupation with running Richards vs. again, the magnificent 8 goal, blood and sweat performance in last year’s 2nd round, also the fact that he’s no less excited when a goal he didn’t factor in on is scored).

He’s the king--he’s going to get knocked.

However, the one criticism leveled at him that I think is valid is that he’s bad defensively. He is. Better than he used to be, but that’s not saying much. It’s not for lack of effort, he just hasn’t learned it yet.

Posted by steve on 02/08/10 at 03:01 AM ET

I think it’s become obvious to me that Pens fans learn everything from their HOMER announcers, you know the ones who say things like

Steigerwald vs. Beninati=Beninati, but B’s a blatant homer as well, just a better broadcaster. Errey vs. Laughlin=Errey. Both are homers, but Errey’s a. insightful b. very funny. Laughlin is annoying without redeeming value. Still, the San Jose color guy is even worse.

No Leadership is another charge against Ovechkin that I find as bogus as the idea that he doesn’t set guys up. Maybe moreso.

Posted by steve on 02/08/10 at 03:30 AM ET

@steve, one thing i know, the Caps ananouncers would NEVER have made a statement like the Pens announcers did.  NEVER.  Sorry, but that’s just low class.

Still think it’s funny you thinking Ovi is bad defensively.  Who was a +3 yesterday afternoon, who was a -2?

And there was no EN goal for Green when Green was having his streak that Ovi didn’t pass to him.  I think you’re confused with the possibility of Laich EN goal that would have given him a hat trick that Ovi took instead--which even Laich admitted was a smart move because Laich was covered and Ovi wasn’t.

Posted by dfe123 on 02/08/10 at 08:29 PM ET