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Post Season Award Voting and Elite Goalies
by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/09 at 04:45 AM ET
Comments (20)
One of the more controversial comments I made is when I claimed during the semifinals of the playoffs that there were no elite goalies left in the playoffs. At that time, Marc-Andre Fleury of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Nikolai Khabibulin of the Chicago Blackhawks, Chris Osgood of the Detroit Red Wings and Cam Ward of the Carolina Hurricanes remained as the playoff goaltenders. Were there elite goalies in the bunch, it stands to reason that they would have been among the leaders in the voting for the Vezina Trophy and post season all star teams. Assuming they are injury-free, it certainly stands to reason that any elite goalies in the league should get strong support for these awards and possibly even win them.
First, let’s look at the Vezina Trophy voting. Nine goalies received votes. Marc-Andre Fleury, Nikolai Khabibulin and Chris Osgood were not among this group. Cam Ward finished seventh in the voting with 11 points. That result would suggest that if any of the four semi-final goalies are elite, Cam Ward is your man. However, he isn’t a front runner for the award and it is possible to argue against him being among the top handful of NHL goalies.
Now when we look at the post season all star teams, we see fourteen goalies received at least one vote. Again Marc-Andre Fleury and Chris Osgood received no votes whatsoever. This time Nikolai Khabibulin had one third place vote to qualify him for a 13th place tie. Cam Ward had the best showing with 26 points and finished in seventh place. This is not the showing one would expect from a group of elite goalies. Again it is Cam Ward who makes the strongest argument that he belongs in an elite group, but the argument is far from conclusive.
Despite the fact that they received absolutely no support for the Vezina Trophy or post season all star teams it was Chris Osgood and Marc-Andre Fleury who most commenters argued were elite goalies. Osgood had a good playoff. His .926 playoff saves percentage brought his full season saves percentage up to .900, which is well below average. That is not a number of an elite goalie, even if his hot streak was in the playoffs. Marc-Andre Fleury put up a .908 playoff saves percentage, which was below average for the playoffs. That number was not too far off his .912 regular season saves percentage, which was roughly average. That is also not the numbers of an elite goalie; it doesn’t matter if he happens to win the Stanley Cup with them. These seasons are well within expectation for both of these player’s career trajectories (in Osgood’s case last year was an outlier).
The Vezina and all star team voting should provide a reasonable list of the best goalies in the NHL. The goalies that made the semi-finals are not well represented on either of those lists. Cam Ward does that best of the four, but is still a step below elite. The other goalies are further back. Both finalists, Marc-Andre Fleury and Chris Osgood, were not mentioned on one ballot. That would be quite an amazing situation if they were elite goalies.
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Tags: Cam+Ward, Chris+Osgood, Marc-Andre+Fleury, Nikolai+Khabibulin,
Comments
Byour reasoning, Washington sat an “elite,” Vezina/Hart winning goalie for a scrub, when, in most other people’s reasoning, they sat a sieve for a potential star.
Posted by steve on 06/23/09 at 04:28 AM ET
No Steve
Jose Theodore received zero Vezina/ all star votes in 2008/09 either.
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/09 at 04:29 AM ET
Bollocks. What’s more “elite” than being the only active goaltender with a hart trophy and one of only three in all of the NHL’s history?
Posted by steve on 06/23/09 at 04:34 AM ET
If Theodore was playing that well today, he would be an elite goalie today. Obviously he isn’t playing at that level and hasn’t for years. Have you watched a Jose Theodore game since the lockout?
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/09 at 04:36 AM ET
So how did your “elite” goalies that went to the all-star game and got the awards do? Last time I checked Ozzie has a sub 2.00 GAA and a .930 SV% in the last 2 play-off runs. “Flower” (what a gay nickname) had an amazing playoff run and looks to be coming into his own. Cam Ward is a proven winner and carried his team to the ECF, where the Hurricanes had no business being. Will anybody ever confuse these 3 with Patrick Roy or Martin Broduer? Of course not. But these 3 have proven that when the playoffs come they really raise their game to an elite level. Luongo is an elite goalie by anybody’s standards, but he has been unable to raise his game when it counts in the playoffs. Does that disqualify him from being elite? It’s the same argument you’re using but with the regular season.
So TPSH, which would you rather have: A goalie that plays amazing for 60 regular season games but then flops in the playoffs because he’s out of gas. Or would you prefer a goalie that just gets it done during the regular season and plays out of his mind come playoff time? It’s a simple choice for me.
Posted by Cainer4Wingsglory from Ottawa on 06/23/09 at 05:26 AM ET
So TPSH, which would you rather have: A goalie that plays amazing for 60 regular season games but then flops in the playoffs because he’s out of gas. Or would you prefer a goalie that just gets it done during the regular season and plays out of his mind come playoff time?
This is a false choice. I want the best goalie I can get. I am not limited in my choices to only regular season goalies or only playoff goalies (and I am not convinced either animal actually exists). The best goalies play well in both situations.
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/09 at 05:30 AM ET
I’ll comment just to get the email updates, but I get the feeling people are largely burned out with responding to TPSH’s consistent stupidity.
I mean, seriously, TPSH just spent a post talking about how awards and voting aren’t being done as he sees fit… and now he’s using awards and voting to determine who is ‘elite’, as though he could figure out what ‘elite’ was if it punched him in the boobies?
-sigh-
It’s like the universe came up with someone just to set responsible, intelligent hockey discussion back about 5 years, gave them a hideously cheesy screen name, and then tricked Paul into letting the idiot post here. 
Posted by HockeyinHD on 06/23/09 at 06:43 AM ET
That is also not the numbers of an elite goalie; it doesn’t matter if he happens to win the Stanley Cup with them
For crying out loud… why can you not understand a point that has been made, over and over, by so many fans, in response to every one of these blog posts - real hockey fans don’t give a flying ftorek whether their team’s goalie wins the Vezina trophy, or posts the best regular season save percentage. You think Alex Ovechkin will enjoy this summer more than Sidney Crosby, because Ovie won the Hart/Pearson/Richard, and Sid only got his name on some measly thing called the Stanley Cup? Did I miss the celebration parade for San Jose’s President’s Trophy triumph this year? All that matters is the Stanley Cup. End of. An elite player is somebody who will help the team towards the Cup. Sure, you have to be in it to win it, so regular season production is fairly important, but the real season is the one that starts in April.
BTW, the Vezina is a regular season award. Trying to define the best playoff goalies (the ones that will win you a Cup) based on the Vezina is like defining the best driver at the Indy 500 based on qualifying times.
This whole ‘elite’ crusade is the kind of thing you’d expect a 14 year old to be coming out with, and really does not belong on the KK blogs which provide actual insight into the game, the players, and the fans (yes, even AtoY)
Posted by fredster from london on 06/23/09 at 07:08 AM ET
This is a false choice
Look at you, trying to sound smart. Dude, we all read your post, we know you are not smart nor do you ever have an informed point of view.
“Stupid is as stupid does”
A Very famous quote that certainly applies to you in the deepest sense. However for the purposes of this argument I will change it a bit.
“Elite is as elite does”
Ozzie, Ward, and MAF have won cups because of their elite play. They are elite. End. Of. Story.
Posted by Cainer4Wingsglory from Ottawa on 06/23/09 at 07:42 AM ET
ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!!!! ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A Village is missing it’s IDIOT !!!!
Posted by Evilpens on 06/23/09 at 08:33 AM ET
....once again, proving your doucheness.
Like I said yesterday, keep it coming!
Posted by moore00 from the Ohio State University on 06/23/09 at 08:57 AM ET
you’re right cainer. no other goalie could lace Osgood’s skates lol.
Ozzie has won cups b/c he plays on the best team of the 90’s and ‘00’s. Doesn’t make him a bad guy, doesnt make him a scrub, he’s just not elite. I can make a long list of goalies that could win a cup with Pittsburgh/Detroit right now. Osgood was outplayed all year by Ty Freaking Conklin, then got hot for the playoffs. That’s it. Not some magical clutch focus(did he just say F it for the regular season? B/c i dont want that guy on my team), he just played well at that time. On a top team. So they made the finals.
Posted by Chris from NY on 06/23/09 at 09:13 AM ET
Chris Pronger didn’t receive a Norris Trophy vote.
Obviously, not an elite defenseman.
Posted by Greg Wyshynski from Washington, DC on 06/23/09 at 09:44 AM ET
TPSH just spent a post talking about how awards and voting aren’t being done as he sees fit… and now he’s using awards and voting to determine who is ‘elite’
HockeyinHD wins this thread, proving that TPSH’s opinions don’t come logically from any principles or well thought out convictions. Rather, the principles and convictions are based on pre-conceived opinions.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 06/23/09 at 10:56 AM ET
Chris Pronger didn’t receive a Norris Trophy vote.
Obviously, not an elite defenseman
There are exceptions to any rule of thumb and that is a very good one. Pronger did get a bit of support for the post season all star team on defence (3 votes). That does give him more support than Osgood and Fleury combined.
If somebody wants to maintain that Chris Osgood or Marc-Andre Fleury are other exceptions to the rule who have the track record of success of a Chris Pronger but didn’t get many votes this year, that would be a somewhat rational position to hold. I would love to hear them attempt to argue that they do have Chris Pronger’s track record. In last year’s Hockey News top 50 Pronger was ranked 11th. There is no mention of Osgood and Fleury.
Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/09 at 11:20 AM ET
Chris Pronger didn’t receive a Norris Trophy vote.
Obviously, not an elite defenseman.
Posted by Greg Wyshynski from Washington, DC on 06/23/09 at 10:44 AM ET
Mike Babcock finished, what...fifth in the Adams voting? Definitely not elite. Very good but not elite, not when you compare him to what Claude Julien’s done, or Bruce Boudreau, or even Dan Bylsma.
Posted by IwoCPO from Washington, DC on 06/23/09 at 11:21 AM ET
Wait, Martin Brodeur isn’t on either of those lists (or at least not high enough to warrant a listing) so what you’re saying is he’s not an elite goalie or is he just not “elite” this year? I’m just going by your last post. Pronger got 3 and Brodeur got got no votes this year so I guess neither of them are elite players. I can’t believe your reasoning.
At the same time, Steve Mason was second in votes to get on the 2nd all-star team and Vezina voting. Does that officially make him elite after 3/4 of a year? Come on, man. Maybe you should watch the recent Star Trek movie and pay attention a little thing called logic (especially when it’s ridiculous).
Posted by Matt Fry from Winnipeg on 06/23/09 at 01:22 PM ET
I’d like to see the voting for the Conn Smythe. Where would Fleury and Osgood have ranked. Probably in the top 5. That’s a Post Season Award, would that make them an elite goalie?
Posted by Lindas1st on 06/23/09 at 04:04 PM ET
Well, the postseason is no more than 28 games for any goaltender, and according to TPSH those 28 games are equal in value as any 28 games from the regular season. So no, I imagine that doesn’t make them elite on TPSH’s list, Lindas1st.
Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 06/24/09 at 09:52 AM ET
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I’m gonna get my popcorn and watch the chaos that ensues from this.
On the other hand, you should maybe put the shovel away - the size of the hole you’ve dug for yourself on this topic alone is canyon-sized.
Posted by HockeyJoe from Upstate New York on 06/23/09 at 03:54 AM ET