Green’s defence was good enough to make him a Norris frontrunner last year and it is better now.

Wrong.  The ONLY reason he was a candidate was his offense.  His defense had nothing to do with it.  Your credibility takes another hit, as if you had any to lose.

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 12/20/09 at 02:24 PM ET

DEL ZOTTO.

Posted by ToBeTheMan on 12/20/09 at 02:28 PM ET

...though it is a thought experiment and there is no clear way to calculate such a statistic.  I think Green has produced more wins for Washington than any other defenceman has produced for his team this season.

There’s some concrete evidence for you.

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 12/20/09 at 02:54 PM ET

Where’s the love for kabby . People think we over rate him in Toronto , but the is a reason he racks up all those points. Mike green has ovie backstrom semin and a whole lot more besides kessel what dose Toronto have. No one and yet the guy continues to produce and unlike mike green he can actrually play defence

Posted by Fan from Canada on 12/20/09 at 03:17 PM ET

Green has no Idea what position is, he is basically a pp specialists. If they made him change his game, he might be able to. Not sure. But this year is all about Drew Doughty. I stay up late on the east coast to see him play. The total package, plays on the PK, PP, super smart with the puck and can actually play D. I see a lot of Caps games, Green has a long way to go, I had when the Norris goes to the d-man with the most points. Makes me wounder if the people voting actually watch the games or just look at the stats.

Posted by PenguinJuice on 12/20/09 at 03:47 PM ET

green?  ha.  oooookay!  If he is the best defenceman, then why do you believe Stevie Y. and the rest of the olympic decision makers are going to leave him at home when the olympics roll around?  I know the answer…. it’s because he can not play defense.

Bruce B. allows that crap to happen at the determent of the team.  It will not work at the olympics however.

Posted by gretzky_to_lemieux on 12/20/09 at 04:09 PM ET

I think there is an interesting parallel between Paul Coffey and Mike Green.  Both were clearly the best offensive defenceman in their time.  Both were not among the best defensive defensemen in their time.  Both were so offensively dominant and their puckmoving skils were of extreme importance to their team’s offence and both were the top defenceman in the NHL for a while (Coffey for a logner while than Green - at least so far).  Both were strongly attacked by some fans and writers for their lack of defensive skill - though neither were anywhere near the worst defensive defencemen in hockey at their times.  Both put up +/- ratings that were among the best on their team and in the league.  Both were instrumental parts to top offences in the league.  We are seeing the same dynamic in fans and writers who wont believe that Mike Green could be the best defenceman in the league - despite the fact he is likely worth the most win shares to his team.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 12/20/09 at 05:29 PM ET

hahahhaahaa.  What a post.  Green’s never been the “top defenseman” in the NHL (again, just because you said so once, doesn’t make it a fact!)

But the best part of this so far was that you are using wins shares stat as evidence, which 1) you admitted was simply a made up stat and 2) you don’t even make up fake numbers showing he is winning!

Awesome.  This is the kind of thing I love about PSH.

(BTW, nice touch with the “People who will argue for a better defensive player this season get one with less offensive skills and with less overall value.”  This type of sentence defines you…)

Posted by moore00 from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 12/20/09 at 05:52 PM ET

The fact Green was nominated for the Norris last year is strong evidence he was among the top defencemen in the league last year - and basically that is what I am arguing.

And this year he continues to be the top offensive defecneman and shows improvements in his defence that already almost won the Norris.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 12/20/09 at 06:02 PM ET

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Yeah OK Toe Blake

D’OH !!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahaha Green as Best D Man hahahahahahahahahahaha

Posted by Evilpens on 12/20/09 at 06:18 PM ET

I do agree with the notion of doughty being a possiblity having watch this kid grow if he continues this pace there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be considered.  He dose so much at such a young age, and dosent get his props cause he plays for L.A

Posted by Fan from Canada on 12/20/09 at 07:01 PM ET

What a joke. Picking Mike Green for the Norris makes little sense when you consider the other defensemen in this league who play against the best players and still manage to put up huge points.

Duncan Keith and Drew Doughty deserve to be on the short list.

Even Caps’ fans can’t say Mike Green and defenseman in the same sentence without laughing.

Posted by Bulldozer on 12/20/09 at 09:58 PM ET

I’ve seen Mirtle feature a quality of competition number in his statistical analysis when ranking players, I’d like to see where Mike Green fits in there.  While some coaching styles have advocated putting grinders out against top-tier talent and letting your own talented guys play against the other team’s grinders, I’ve rarely seen it where a person who could be considered a team’s best defenseman doesn’t regularly play against his opponents’ best offensive threats.  Maybe it’s the dawning of a whole new style, who knows?  I’m just not ready to call a second-tier defenseman a Norris candidate.  I think that allows lazy sportswriters to use offensive categories as a crutch for not having done their homework.

Duncan Keith consistently plays against the other teams’ top forward lines and is not so far back of Mike Green in points production or plus/minus to overlook that when considering who is the best defenseman in the NHL to this point.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/21/09 at 09:21 AM ET

Like it or not, naysayers, but barring significant injury, MIke Green will likely be selected to the Canadian Olympic Team and by the end of this season will more than likely be among the Norris finalists.

For the Norris, the traditional contenders like Scott Niedermayer, Chris Pronger and Nicklas Lidstrom are having challenging seasons as part of under-performing teams. They are still great defensemen, but unless their squads perform better in the second half of the season, they won’t be getting much attention from the voters.

Among the names on my Norris short list right at this moment are Green, Tomas Kaberle, Dan Boyle, Duncan Keith, Lubomir Visnovsky and Drew Doughty. And if I had to pick the three probable finalists as of this moment, I’d go with Green, Keith and Doughty.

All three of those players offer superb offense and relatively solid defense. Of course, “relative” is the operative word for Green, but he’s played much more deliberate this season. He’s still taking risks, but picking his spots much better and much more successfully. I saw a similar improvement in Paul Coffey his fourth year in the league. And we all recall how important Coffey was in the 1984 Canada Cup, let alone

The guy who has really stepped it up this season is Duncan Keith, who is on pace for a career year. If he can keep it up, he’s my odds-on favourite for the Norris.

Posted by Matthew McCallum from Redding, California on 12/21/09 at 01:14 PM ET

JJ

The quality of competition numbers can be found at behind the net.  One problem with these numbers is that it is not always easy to compare numbers between different teams.  Small differences in quality of competition numbers between players on different teams might not be meaningful.

That said, Mike Green has a -0.008 meaning he plays against slightly worse competition than the average Capital.  Drew Doughty is -0.004 on Los Angeles.  He too plays against slightly worse than average competition and the difference between Doughty and Green’s numbers are small enough they may not be meaningful.  Duncan Keith plays against tough competition.  His 0.134 rating is second on the Blackhawks (behind Brent Seabrook).  He clearly plays against tougher competition than either Doughty or Green.  However, he is not as successful doing do.  At even strength, Chicago has a better +/- with him off the ice than with him on it (his rate adjusted +/- is negative).  Whereas Doughty and Green have significant positive ones (as does Brent Seabrook for what its worth).

Keith clearly plays against tougher opposition.  Green and Doughty have been more successful when you do not take opposition into account.  Green is more successful offensively and on the power play (numbers not taken into account in the behind the net stats).  I think the Mike Green pick holds up well.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 12/21/09 at 02:46 PM ET

See, PSH, thank you for actually showing some stats backing up your claim. 

I don’t agree with the pick, but still, that is better.

Posted by moore00 from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 12/21/09 at 06:40 PM ET

TPSH, I see you still incite nothing but negative comments and criticism. Some things never change.

I’m not so sure that Green gets a spot on the Olympic team. I know he’s a great PP guy, but there are other Dmen that not only excel on the PP, but can play rock solid stay at home D as well. Pronger is a good example of this (despite his slump recently, this guy ALWAYS raises his game when it counts), Niedermayer, Keith and Weber. I’d fill out the last spots with Regher (miserable to play against) and either Boyle or Doughty. I have no bias, I just want Canada to win gold and see Green as a liability….

Posted by cainer4wingsglory on 12/21/09 at 08:20 PM ET

It stands to reason that the Capitals team plus/minus raises when Green comes on the ice against weaker lines.

I also believe that Keith’s relative plus/minus adjustment is more a testament to Chicago’s scoring depth than a mark against him, as he’s generally the one playing against a team’s only scoring line, but comes off and has Chicago’s 2nd and 3rd line, which are extremely dangerous feast on lesser opponents.

Still, the case between Keith and Green is not one of a large divide, I’d simply take Keith.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/21/09 at 08:49 PM ET

Back on December 21 I wrote “Like it or not, naysayers, but barring significant injury, MIke Green will likely be selected to the Canadian Olympic Team and by the end of this season will more than likely be among the Norris finalists.”

Let me be the first to admit that with the announcement of the Olympic rosters this morning, my prediction of “likely…selected” turned out to be a not at all selected.

Round one to the naysayers…

Posted by Matthew McCallum from Redding, California on 12/30/09 at 01:51 PM ET