As a huge Pens fan, I’m not worried. Pens started out worse last year:

5-5-2, I believe?

We’ll be just fine.

Posted by Ctoph from Atlanta on 11/03/08 at 02:03 PM ET

6-4-2 Ctoph....

But overall, I would tend to agree… It’s really about keeping your head above water until the horses on defense return… But not all of their ills are because those two are out, not even close…

Posted by Tony F from Virginia Beach, VA on 11/03/08 at 02:21 PM ET

  Couldn’t you just apply to any/every team in the NHL and they’d become a better, more fluent team?? 
Might as well say “Score more goals” or “Keep the puck out of your own net”.  That would also help.

Posted by SimpleBinary from Beefalo on 11/03/08 at 02:34 PM ET

Good point SB, let me get started on that…

Posted by Tony F from Virginia Beach, VA on 11/03/08 at 02:39 PM ET

I definitely agree with points 2 & 7 above. I agree, I wouldn’t say it is all because Gonchar and Whitney are out, but it is a part of the reason their defense/powerplay has struggled. I think it will become evident how they miss a Malone, Laraque, Rutuu, or Roberts, because of their roles they played with the team. Their replacements (Fedotenko, Godard, Cook, Satan) haven’t quite got the chemistry like the players had last year, but I have seen it coming together in the last few games, even though the scoreboard hasn’t shown that.

Final point, I am loving what Goligoski has brought to the team and look for him to be a top the point leaders for the team at the end of the year.

Posted by Doug S from The Cuse on 11/03/08 at 05:12 PM ET

#1 and #4 are HUGE problems, these were the reasons they lost to Detroit.
If you go back and watch the first 4 games of the finals they failed to forecheck and their transition game all but dried up. I thought the change was due to a strategy being deployed against the wings, but after watching so far this year it seems to be an alarming trend.
And I would agree with the chemistry aspect. The pens had significant turnover last season, changes that i think are for the best. Think of it this way, if last year in the preseason you heard that we were going to trade Malone,Cristenson, and Armstrong for Satan, Dupuis, and Fedetenko Penguin nation would have been screaming with glee. The reality is that is what we got out of the deal. Yes Ruutu, Roberts and Laraque were good role players but do you really believe with Goddard and Cooke we will lose any significant production.
I know that Terrien needs to move lines to find combos however if he doesn’t leave them together long enough we will never know if they are going to work. Not to mention we made it to the finals last year because we rolled 4 good lines, if they keep matching Sid with Geno everytime we have lackluster offense it will leave us with one scoring line, one average line, and 2 checking lines. Not good at all

Posted by henry hill from pittsburgh on 11/03/08 at 06:24 PM ET

I think the problem is that they clearly are less talented than at the end of last season. Take away Hossa and Malone from nearly every team and they would struggle. Frankly, Satan and Fedotenko are very poor replacements.

Satan clearly has the hands, but he can’t skate well enough to be a factor in the transition game, where Crosby’s skills have so much value.

Just look at the games when Recchi was playing on Crosby’s wing versus Hossa. Hossa was a great fit as he had the hands, the skating and the determination to get back in the play. Satan can make moves, but he can’t accelerate away from defenders. He just beats the same ones over again until he moves the puck or loses it.

Another issue is Staal. He just doesn’t have the skills to be good enough to play on the top two lines (at this point in time). He will get too much money to be a 3rd line center (plus he needs to improve on the draw to be defensive specialist). He just doesn’t fit the Pens’ needs right now.

Looking at the lineup in training camp, I don’t see how everyone didn’t think the team would suffer. There is only so much that Crosby and Malkin can do. I just hope Shero can find the pieces to add some legitimate scoring line talent to the team.

Go Pens!

Posted by catz27 on 11/03/08 at 07:03 PM ET

Why has no one mentioned the all-around God aweful playing of Hal Gill? For being the “enforcer” of the team, I don’t think he has registered a single body check. He’s huge, slow, and terrible. He’s even an assistant captain now. What has he done to deserve this honor? Yes, he does have 2 goals this year.....on Fleury. He is absolutely terrible at clearing the puck on the pk. Just turn your head and LOOK before you try to clear it!!!!! On the offensive end, he is never in the right postion to hold the puck in at the blue line, and when he does have a chance to shoot, he just dumps it in behind the net, forcing us to regain possession. He should be killing people on the ice if nothing else. He’s like the Ben Wallace of the NHL.

Posted by freakinjosh from ohio on 11/03/08 at 08:56 PM ET

im a die hard pens fan.. and im a little worried.. this team will get better as the season moves on.. but shero listen up.. when whitney and gonchar come back.. one of your 9 d men need to go.. as well as jordan staal. it would be nice to have a player on this team who could score a goal.. cuz crosby cant. staal and goligoski for gaborik.. done deal

Posted by Joey from Cambridge, Ontario on 11/03/08 at 10:06 PM ET

Joey;

You are wrong. You said get rid of Jordan Staal because he can’t score. This is stupid. You mise well jsut say get rid of everyone because as you said “ no one is scoring”.

Posted by TR from Slippery Rock on 11/03/08 at 11:30 PM ET

First to catz27, I agree that the team is less talented without Hossa, but there was no chance of them keeping him. And let’s just say they did. At $8 milion a year we would only have one line. Staal has proven that his first season was a fluke, so other than Dupuis on the line with Hossa and Crosby what do you have left. Yes Sykora and Malkin but then who skates with them? Then what does your 3rd and 4th line look like? Yes Satan and Fedetenko aren’t all stars but neither was Malone and Roberts, they were ROLE players. Satan and Fedetenko along with Cooke and Goddard are adequate to fit that role. Malone has 2 points in 10 games, Satan has 10 points in 12 games. So far that trade off seems adequate. Once again I’m not arguing Hossa’s talent level, the reality is that he was never an option after the finals.
However I do agree with you 100% that Staal is overrated and not producing. He had a good rookie season and that was it. And for the Staal fans I don’t want to hear “he’s young, it’s only his third year” Well Crosby and Malkin are young and it’s only their first 3-4 years as well. Compare him to his brother he can’t even hold his brother’s jock. Get rid of him while you can, he’s not worth more than $1.5 to $2 million a year. And don’t give me that “he has so much potential garbage”, so did Alexander Daigle.
As for the defense I think long term this will prove to be a good thing. It’s obvious Gill and Sydor both got one foot out the door to retirement. But with Whitney and Gonchar’s injuries you get to have a good look @ Goligoski early on in the season to see if he is your next defenseman. Better now than during the peak of the playoff run or god forbid in the playoffs. So if he proves good enough it will allow us to dump one of the old men, if not he will be a good fill in come late season.
As for trading for Gaborik, in a fantasy world I agree but with the salary cap there is NO WAY you can do this. Remember Staal and Goligoski are a couple of your lower paid players, you would have to dump some BIG salary to get him. But I do agree with trading Staal ASAP. Look at his numbers 74 points in 175 games!!! Compare him to four other players ALSO born in 1988, Mueller w/Phoenix 59 points in only 90 games, Kane w/Chicago 85 points in 93 games, Towes w/chicago 60 points in75 games, Perron w/St.louis 34 points in 71 games. And that’s just a few names of young players. Trade him while you can still get something for him
GO PENS

Posted by henry hill from pittsburgh on 11/04/08 at 01:42 AM ET

3.  Inaccuracy

yes i agree with the jordan stall comment but unlike most people i think he was drafted to be the number one defensve center in the game who could possibly produce.

You draft sidney crosby then malkin two top scorers in thier respective leagues and you have a shot at kessal or towes over staal i think thats looking forward.

If i had drafted malkin or crosby based on all the predraft video i had seen i would go after the best 2 way player i saw in the draft and that was staal offense is not everything in hockey

Posted by dd7 on 11/04/08 at 04:08 AM ET

@freakinjosh - Concur about Gill, honestly I just forgot to add his performance.  I’d also add Marc Eaton as well.  I think Brooks Orpik has had several lapses also.

So hell, let’s add all of them, none of them have been excellent....

Posted by Tony F from Virginia Beach, VA on 11/04/08 at 10:05 AM ET

I think the main problem is their defense. They aren’t getting the breakout passes they need, and they are allowing a god awful amount of shots.  The offense will have a bad game here or there, or maybe 3 bad in a row, but we are always going to get the puck in the net when Geno and Sid are on the team.  Getting rid of Sydor, Eaton, and Gill is an absolute must. Obviously we need them right now with injuries, but by next season, those three had best be gone. Not to mention that would save the penguins 2.5, 2.075, and 2 million respectively, easily enough to sign a decent free agent by next season.

Posted by Kevin from Pittsburgh on 11/04/08 at 10:21 AM ET

Well im still laughing at people attributing the slow start to missing malone and hossa.  Hossa had minimal contribution to any of the regular season last year, and go back and look at malones stats at the start of last season, his stats started up once geno got going (not a coincidence).  This is just a slow start team, it has been under the reigns of this coach.  I don’t know why but it just is.  You look at stats beyond just wins and loses through the first twelve games last year and they are virtually identical.  To attribute this start to a loss of two players is just nieve.  The only time to begin to worry will be the end of november...but i have a feeling the ball will be rolling and we can stop hearing about malone (THANK THE LORD!) and hossa.

Posted by Sean on 11/04/08 at 12:01 PM ET

I think the team could have survived, perhaps thrived, with losing only one of Hossa or Malone. However, looking realistically at the roster, we have two great centers and basically one top 2 line winger. The rest of the forwards are role players.

Now I suppose I should clarify. We could have survived the loss of Malone AND Hossa if we had any sort of talented depth at WBS or in the system. However, with the exception of Kennedy, the team has failed to find any decent scoring wingers in the draft in quite some time...and Kennedy is a reach to be classified as a scoring winger. Salmonsson, Gergen, etc. just haven’t panned out. To be fair, we’ve done well drafting defensemen over the same time frame. Except for the premier picks which give a good chance of landing a star, we’ve struggled and the lack of talent is apparent in WBS. It’s a hard working, successful team, but very few of those guys will contribute in Pgh.

My overarching point is not that we should have kept Malone and/or Hossa. They are overpaid/too expensive. It’s just that we took our shot and probably will need another season or two to have another legitimate chance at the Final. This team will make the playoffs, but just can’t score enough to go deep in the playoffs again. If we had someone (anyone) who could come up and contribute on the top lines, we wouldn’t have lost our window of opportunity.

Go Pens.

Posted by catz27 on 11/04/08 at 01:50 PM ET

@Sean - Interesting you mentioned the end of November, that was just around the time last season after a big win vs. Ottawa that they picked it up....

Also, completely agree on Malone… As you can see now in TB, I think his career year was last year....

Posted by Tony F from Virginia Beach, VA on 11/04/08 at 02:12 PM ET

@dd7, I completely agree with you about Staal being a well-rounded player. Although he is not a scoring machine, he has done a great job when it comes to the penalty kill and as a defensive forward.

I go back to my original post and henry hill brought it up, everyone is needing to fit into their roles. progress has been made to get the pieces in place; despite the final scores and we will really see where they stand in the next few games (Edm, NYI, Det, Phil, Buf, Min) with the opponents having a combined record of 36-21-10; Det, Buf & Min all sitting on top of their division.

After the St. Louis game, I would like to see Therrien keep Talbot on the Crosby line. Talbot is a tough player, battles for the puck down low & against the boards, will protect Crosby and could be the Malone type player in front of the net. These two with a mix of Fedotenko or Satan could be a quality line.

we are 12 games into the season. i would love to see a follow-up to this article about a third of the way through the season in early december to see how the Pens have (or if they haven’t) addressed some of these points discussed…

GO PENS!

Posted by Doug S from The Cuse on 11/04/08 at 08:37 PM ET

Staal:
youngest in draft class...still the 17th youngest player currently lacing ‘em up in the NHL....

his best playing days are definitely ahead of him....with year 1 being an anomaly and the last 2 years aiding King Shero + the Pens not having to create an above market contract come this spring/summer.

2. Poor puck cycling.

IMO, this is good for the 3rd/4th lines...but HCMT having all 4 lines doing this is as ‘setting up their offense’ is crazy. How many times a game do you see all 3 Pens’ forwards BELOW the goal line? with not a one even hinting at getting into a good scoring position [to shoot or receive a pass to get off a good shot] OR anyone even sniffing out the front of the net for a: screen?...deflection?...just to cause trouble and maybe draw a penalty?

Posted by dr. turkleton from PIT on 11/04/08 at 10:31 PM ET

turkleton, it’s irrelevant whether or not Staal is the 17th youngest player in the game. He has 175 games under his belt. And let’s not forget, most of the people producing in this game are maybe a whole 1 to 2 years older than him?? I get tired of hearing people saying “his best days are to come” If we can resign him for under $2 million a year, yes he is worth keeping. But this absurd notion that we need to pay him $4,$5, or even $6 million a year because one day he’s going to be a really good player, that’s just ignorant. What would ANY other team pay for a third line center that is above average defensively and below average offensively? Staal obviously cannot play wing, he’s already proven that. So he will never be more than a 3rd line center, remember Crosby and Malkin are only 1-2 years older than him and neither of them are going anywhere. So instead of overpaying an underperforming 3rd line center that may or may not pan out, trade him for a good young winger. That’s what we need, not another 3rd line center.
I agree with Sean, Hossa was here a short time, and if anyone remembers he did not have a good regular season with us. And Malone, are you friggin kidding me. Pay him $5 million a year...You have to be as crazy as Barry Melrose to do something like that. Malone was a good role player, that’s it, nothing more. Let’s look back at the end of the season and see who produced more Malone of Satan. As of now even Fedetenko is out producing Malone. Let’s not forget Malone had a whole 51 points last season, it’s not like he was in the scoring title chase. Plus @ $5 million a year there were alot of good players on the market @ that price last year.
Go Pens

Posted by henry hill from pittsburgh on 11/05/08 at 01:23 AM ET